They'd have to gear a hell of a lot longer with these turbos to get any kind of meaningful effect on the tires. It was easy with V8, but not anymore. I don't think preventing wheel spin is the main cause.beelsebob wrote: Most teams are struggling with the amount of torque... How do you reduce the amount of torque? That's easy - gear longer. Hollus seems to believe that that won't actually do anything useful though.
Hollus is right. With a flat power curve, operating in a higher gear means engine spinning slower means more engine torque because you have same power no matter the engine rpm.beelsebob wrote:That was exactly my point.bhall wrote:Because a gearbox multiplies torque by the same proportion in which it reduces rotation, wheel torque progressively decreases as the ratios grow longer with every upshift. Think of it as trading torque for speed in order to maintain the same power throughout.
In any case, that means a longer ratio 1st gear will indeed result in less wheel torque compared to an alternate, shorter ratio 1st gear affixed to the same engine.
Most teams are struggling with the amount of torque... How do you reduce the amount of torque? That's easy - gear longer. Hollus seems to believe that that won't actually do anything useful though.
Great, then I fully expect to watch the entire grid starting in 8th gear. After all, it would be pointless to start in any other if what you say is true.PhilS13 wrote:Hollus is right. With a flat power curve, operating in a higher gear means engine spinning slower means more engine torque because you have same power no matter the engine rpm.beelsebob wrote:That was exactly my point.bhall wrote:Because a gearbox multiplies torque by the same proportion in which it reduces rotation, wheel torque progressively decreases as the ratios grow longer with every upshift. Think of it as trading torque for speed in order to maintain the same power throughout.
In any case, that means a longer ratio 1st gear will indeed result in less wheel torque compared to an alternate, shorter ratio 1st gear affixed to the same engine.
Most teams are struggling with the amount of torque... How do you reduce the amount of torque? That's easy - gear longer. Hollus seems to believe that that won't actually do anything useful though.
Your longer gear reduces the torque multiplication but the engine outputs more of it, you end up with the same amount at the wheels.
You really don't understand the maths of this I'm afraid. The power curves are essentially flat from circa 10,000 rpm upwards with these fuel flow limited engines. Therefore provided the driver doesn't let the rpm drop below 10,000 the gearing at a given road speed doesn't affect the engine power being delivered and therefore also doesn't change the wheel torque. The ONLY way to reduce wheel torque is to let the rpm drop below 10,000 (or lift off the throttle - Duh!). That would be a stupid thing to do in any gear from 4th upwards at speeds where wheel spin is not an issue and having determined the higher gear ratios for best car performance the lower ones are also fixed to obtain sensible gaps in the ratios.beelsebob wrote:That was exactly my point.bhall wrote:Because a gearbox multiplies torque by the same proportion in which it reduces rotation, wheel torque progressively decreases as the ratios grow longer with every upshift. Think of it as trading torque for speed in order to maintain the same power throughout.
In any case, that means a longer ratio 1st gear will indeed result in less wheel torque compared to an alternate, shorter ratio 1st gear affixed to the same engine.
Most teams are struggling with the amount of torque... How do you reduce the amount of torque? That's easy - gear longer. Hollus seems to believe that that won't actually do anything useful though.
Your power and torque values are a mile out. 490 ft lbs at 10,500 rpm would be 980 bhp. The actual net wheel bhp after transmission and tyre losses from 10.5k upwards is about 700 including the 160 bhp from ERS and flywheel bhp will probably be about 70 bhp higher but we still need to do a bit more work on transmission losses.mathbriere27 wrote:So yeh, I'm so glad to have found this and Blanchimont's threads, as I'm trying to simulate 2014 physics/torque/power values in Grand Prix 4. I made a basic gear set after watching a lap with Magnussen in Melbourne. But I actually didn't notice the disparity between each car.
I got torque values from the 1987 Honda V6, which I copied into the game and then I set my gearing accordingly. My power peak is right between 10,000 and 10,500 RPM, nearing 490 lb-ft. And 418 lb-ft at 12,500 RPM.
Oh yes I'm aware of thatPumaracing wrote:Your power and torque values are a mile out. 490 ft lbs at 10,500 rpm would be 980 bhp. The actual net wheel bhp after transmission and tyre losses from 10.5k upwards is about 700 including the 160 bhp from ERS and flywheel bhp will probably be about 70 bhp higher but we still need to do a bit more work on transmission losses.mathbriere27 wrote:So yeh, I'm so glad to have found this and Blanchimont's threads, as I'm trying to simulate 2014 physics/torque/power values in Grand Prix 4. I made a basic gear set after watching a lap with Magnussen in Melbourne. But I actually didn't notice the disparity between each car.
I got torque values from the 1987 Honda V6, which I copied into the game and then I set my gearing accordingly. My power peak is right between 10,000 and 10,500 RPM, nearing 490 lb-ft. And 418 lb-ft at 12,500 RPM.
This has been a WIP project for months already, so a lot of progress has to be made until I get something nearing real life figures. Then again, the way the game works makes it so that torque values can be counterbalanced with lower bhp figures in another file. Now imagine that, this winter, I even thought they would rev up to 15,000 RPM ! I didn't even think about the fuel flow vs. RPM concept. Keep it going guys, you're inspiring me to keep pushing my in-depth technical knowledge of the sport I love. I have to admit though, my lap times are quite realistic, albeit a little too quick sometimes, but I know I'll be able to improve engine power and torque data with all your help ! Thanks to everyone for the feedback, that means a lot to me.
Gear Merc. Will. McLaren F.India T.Rosso R. Bull Lotus Marus. Ferrari Sauber 1 13.597 19.288 14.636 2 11.509 11.238 12.579 11.584 12.429 13.508 11.815 11.403 11.045 3 9.577 9.600 9.347 9.519 9.305 9.913 10.173 9.333 9.425 9.025 4 7.879 8.021 7.732 7.904 7.713 7.825 8.006 7.776 7.708 7.487 5 6.299 6.824 6.344 6.293 6.486 6.460 6.725 6.642 6.628 6.586 6 5.105 5.702 5.454 5.122 5.471 5.524 5.704 5.778 5.784 5.679 7 4.299 4.953 4.839 4.399 4.723 4.886 5.039 5.141 5.113 5.128 8 4.401 4.376 4.278 4.418 4.350 4.608Interestingly, there might be something about choosing your ratios to avoid wheelspin. There are wild differences in gear ratios in 1st and 2nd, and again in 6th, 7th, 8th, but all teams converge in the middle. All 4th gears are surprisingly similar across the grid, removing Sauber the range is only about 3%. The way they are now, 4th gears are useful between 130 and 190Km/h. This year wheelspin goes up to about 150Km/h. I assume that the guys that decided these ratios know what they are doing, so maybe there is something about exiting corners at 130Km/h at about 9000rpm so one can floor the pedal and let the fuel delivery increase wheel power (=wheel torque) as the speed increases. This would mean optimizing power delivery for this critical 130-150Km/h range. There being "half a gear off" could have a significant effect. Much below this point I don't think it matters much, you'll have wheelspin no matter which gear you select, much above, you wont.
I concur, he did select 8th gear for a second or two before braking for the hairpin. The onboard mix feed was live on Alonso's rear facing camera at that moment so we have no speed vs. RPM data for Nico's 8th gear :/ Maybe we'll get lucky during the Spanish GP.Diff-user wrote:For whatever this information is worth, Nico engaged 8th gear in the back straight when overtaking Alonso. Lap 42 or 43, I believe
hollus wrote:In case this is driving a misunderstanding: When I mentioned an approximately constant power curve, I meant only between 10000-13000 rpm, give or take.
Moving on:
Gear Merc. Will. McLaren F.India T.Rosso R. Bull Lotus Marus. Ferrari Sauber 1 13.597 19.288 14.636 2 11.509 11.238 12.579 11.584 12.429 13.508 11.815 11.403 11.045 3 9.577 9.600 9.347 9.519 9.305 9.913 10.173 9.333 9.425 9.025 4 7.879 8.021 7.732 7.904 7.713 7.825 8.006 7.776 7.708 7.487 5 6.299 6.824 6.344 6.293 6.486 6.460 6.725 6.642 6.628 6.586 6 5.105 5.702 5.454 5.122 5.471 5.524 5.704 5.778 5.784 5.679 7 4.299 4.953 4.839 4.399 4.723 4.886 5.039 5.141 5.113 5.128 8 4.401 4.376 4.278 4.418 4.350 4.608Interestingly, there might be something about choosing your ratios to avoid wheelspin. There are wild differences in gear ratios in 1st and 2nd, and again in 6th, 7th, 8th, but all teams converge in the middle. All 4th gears are surprisingly similar across the grid, removing Sauber the range is only about 3%. The way they are now, 4th gears are useful between 130 and 190Km/h. This year wheelspin goes up to about 150Km/h. I assume that the guys that decided these ratios know what they are doing, so maybe there is something about exiting corners at 130Km/h at about 9000rpm so one can floor the pedal and let the fuel delivery increase wheel power (=wheel torque) as the speed increases. This would mean optimizing power delivery for this critical 130-150Km/h range. There being "half a gear off" could have a significant effect. Much below this point I don't think it matters much, you'll have wheelspin no matter which gear you select, much above, you wont.
Beelsebob, can we agree that the actual gear ratio is what matters, and not the gear's name?
My point of view, and many other's on this matter, in more detail here: More torque at the wheels?
I think you see something that isn't there. Wheelspin occurs up to 150km/h in a straight line maybe. That was also the case in 2013. The more progressive power delivery was useful out of fast corners when the rears are still laterally loaded. Below 150km/h you are likely coming out of a slow corner, going pretty straight, in 2nd or 3rd gear and struggling for grip no matter if the power curve is flat or peaky.hollus wrote:In case this is driving a misunderstanding: When I mentioned an approximately constant power curve, I meant only between 10000-13000 rpm, give or take.
Interestingly, there might be something about choosing your ratios to avoid wheelspin. There are wild differences in gear ratios in 1st and 2nd, and again in 6th, 7th, 8th, but all teams converge in the middle. All 4th gears are surprisingly similar across the grid, removing Sauber the range is only about 3%. The way they are now, 4th gears are useful between 130 and 190Km/h. This year wheelspin goes up to about 150Km/h. I assume that the guys that decided these ratios know what they are doing, so maybe there is something about exiting corners at 130Km/h at about 9000rpm so one can floor the pedal and let the fuel delivery increase wheel power (=wheel torque) as the speed increases. This would mean optimizing power delivery for this critical 130-150Km/h range. There being "half a gear off" could have a significant effect. Much below this point I don't think it matters much, you'll have wheelspin no matter which gear you select, much above, you wont.
Beelsebob, can we agree that the actual gear ratio is what matters, and not the gear's name
My point of view, and many other's on this matter, in more detail here: More torque at the wheels?
i've got an idea as to why we arent seeing 8th gear being used much by some teams, Rosberg changed to 8th as he was overtaking, which is when you want the maximum power available. so going back to the ideal change points suggested further back, this change took the revs down to the best point on the power curve.mathbriere27 wrote:I concur, he did select 8th gear for a second or two before braking for the hairpin. The onboard mix feed was live on Alonso's rear facing camera at that moment so we have no speed vs. RPM data for Nico's 8th gear :/ Maybe we'll get lucky during the Spanish GP.Diff-user wrote:For whatever this information is worth, Nico engaged 8th gear in the back straight when overtaking Alonso. Lap 42 or 43, I believe
Would be interesting to see his overtake of Vettel after the first stop, he was 8-9ths behind Vettel at the start of the back straight, and overtook him into the corner.Godius wrote:I just watched some onboard video's of the race via the Danish sport 1 site, I made a few screenshots and Rosberg achieved quite a top speed in 7th gear without DRS but with a nice tow from Hülkenberg:
Gear Willi. McLar. T.Rosso R.Bull Lotus Marus. Ferrari Sauber Merce. F.India 1 19.29 13.60 14.64 2 11.24 12.58 12.43 13.51 11.81 11.40 11.05 11.51 11.56 3 9.60 9.35 9.31 9.91 10.17 9.33 9.43 9.03 9.58 9.52 4 8.02 7.73 7.71 7.82 8.01 7.78 7.71 7.49 7.88 7.90 5 6.82 6.34 6.49 6.46 6.72 6.64 6.63 6.59 6.30 6.29 6 5.70 5.45 5.47 5.52 5.70 5.78 5.78 5.68 5.11 5.12 7 4.95 4.84 4.72 4.89 5.04 5.14 5.11 5.13 4.30 4.39 8 4.40 4.38 4.28 4.42 4.35 4.61Well, that's how I see it anyways. Maybe I am reading too much into this?
