Its not the power; its that this year the car is not so planted on the track by EBD, that the driver simply has to plant their foot to waltz into the distance for a winning tour of the track. That's not to say Vettel is not fast when things are "just right," but these days, the drivers actually have to take in a lot of technical info and then tame their 2014 errant beasts with proper driving skills. Added to 2014's difficulties, Vettel's new teammate is not stunningly disadvantaged by being 6ft tall and weighing approximately 20 kilos extra, as Webber was.Vettel Maggot wrote:He lucked out by being in the best car of the time. Now he's in a car down on power and he is getting beaten by a teammate that is used to squabbling for position and driving through the field. I wish 2 of those World Titles were Alonso's, there's a guy that can really drive.
The Renault´s were always down on power during the V8 era, had good torque and was pretty compact, that and the great blowing were the biggest advantages this engine had over the much powerful Mercedes engine.Vettel Maggot wrote:He lucked out by being in the best car of the time. Now he's in a car down on power and he is getting beaten by a teammate that is used to squabbling for position and driving through the field. I wish 2 of those World Titles were Alonso's, there's a guy that can really drive.
New page, new chapter, new start and all that.bhall wrote:I imagine facing a teammate who doesn't immediately take himself out of the race with a poor start is quite a difference for Vettel this year.
(I always hate it when one of my comments starts a new page. I dunno why.)
Big LOL your holiness.bhall wrote:I imagine facing a teammate who doesn't immediately take himself out of the race with a poor start is quite a difference for Vettel this year.(I always hate it when one of my comments starts a new page. I dunno why.)
Actually he isn't, he's commented publicly a number of times that he preferred F1 back when it was V10's + refueling + decent tires and a sprint race from start to finish.lebesset wrote:I guess webber is regretting he isn't still in the red bull this season
I also agree, Vettel is very good but he only got on top of Webber once the blown diffuser was able to blow all the way through the corner and then was able to tip toe around on the stupidly fragile Pirelli tires faster than anyone else.Gerhard Berger wrote:Agree with this.Ultra_Tech wrote:I have always said one simple thing.JimClarkFan wrote:As a corollary to what seems to be the general consensus that he is not the best driver on the grid or of his era, I think that many of us would agree that there is a section of the F1 community who don't rate him at all - wrongly so in my view.
It is worth remembering throughout all this. Is that as a driver you can only beat what is put in front of you.
I think Vettel was close to sublime in that Red Bull, I think Newey worked the car so perfectly to his liking. Some would try and take that away from him, which I don't think is right.
As soon as he actually has to race with the top drivers, instead of being in a rocketship where he can get out of DRS in one lap and cruise home.....then we will find out how good he really is. This has been coming for some time now, even when he was in the rocketship there were little tell tale signs that he wasn't the same when the playing field was equalized, particularly when he actually had to race wheel to wheel with other drivers where he really struggled in my view.
The only thing he ever proved in his 4 WDC title years was that he was faster on Merit than Mark Webber, 2012 for example, going life and death with Fernando Alonso, if the roles were reversed and Alonso was in the Red Bull,that title would have been finished mid season, never a final race decider.
Signs have been there for some time. I really thought 2009 when Jenson Button was destroying everything that moved would have shown people once and for all that most of the top 6/7 driver will look like Senna when their car is 0.5 per faster than anyone else, but no.....people obviously were still getting sucked in unfortunately.
Ross Brawn once said that a great test of a driver's ability is to see how he performs when he doesn't have the best car. We saw Schumacher was outstanding in years like 96-98 and we've seen the same from Alonso the last few years and so far this year. Yet to see something similar from Vettel, and this year, with the car as it is, is the perfect opportunity.
If what you are angling at is misfortune, I would point to him being the most fortunate driver in F1 history.Cam wrote: If Vettel performs poorly this year… what will that mean?
Simple, the stars simply did not align. This is why every WDC is special, no matter what car you’re in.
Well, just because Alonso said, so yeah, that must be the measure of how we define him. Honestly? You've decided to take Vettels arguably biggest competitor and proclaim forth his word as gospel?FoxHound wrote:If what you are angling at is misfortune, I would point to him being the most fortunate driver in F1 history.Cam wrote: If Vettel performs poorly this year… what will that mean?
Simple, the stars simply did not align. This is why every WDC is special, no matter what car you’re in.
1 year in a torro rosso that was better than the Red Bull in 2008, then into the rb5 of 2009 which was the second quickest car over the season, and then the fastest(best)car 4 years running.
As Alonso said, it will be how he performs in a mediocre car that will define him.
Still too early to call how he is doing after 4 races, but it doesn't look great.
Said from the man who always has a mediocre car?FoxHound wrote:As Alonso said, it will be how he performs in a mediocre car that will define him.
You have not so much missed the point as being oblivious to it.Cam wrote:Well, just because Alonso said, so yeah, that must be the measure of how we define him. Honestly? You've decided to take Vettels arguably biggest competitor and proclaim forth his word as gospel?
This aint gospel, he is calling it how it is. If you disagree, then by all means but at least put forward something tangible for the rest of us to go on.Time will tell us [whether he's a great], but I think when he will have a car like the others, if he wins he will have great recognition and he will be one of the legends of F1," said the Spaniard.
"When one day he has the car like the others and he is fourth, fifth or seventh then these four titles will be bad news for him because people will take those four days in a even worse manner than what they are doing now.
"So there are interesting times for Sebastian coming."
Again you miss the point. It is the very fact he performed well leading out and dominating races in the majority of his time in those cars that leads us to ask the questions.Cam wrote:If Vettel performed poorly in the RB5, 6, 7, 8 & 9 - this thread has merit - because another poor year in awesome machinery is very questionable indeed. Come to terms with the fact that the guy did everything that was asked from him since managing to get his bum in a F1 seat. How the Red Bull team measure performance certainly has more merit than Alonso's word.
I'm sorry, wot?basti313 wrote:Said from the man who always has a mediocre car?FoxHound wrote:As Alonso said, it will be how he performs in a mediocre car that will define him.
Just not to say Jehova, I would ask the question how you would define any driver who is not able to drive the best car in 2010 to be WC?
