I Don't Buy Into All These Excuses

[Ultra_Tech]

I'll get straight to the point here, what you are seeing this year is overrated drivers getting exposed in my humble opinion. Simple and as plain as that. For years and years it's become apparent that a large number of F1 fans and the media alike do not know how to separate the difference between a great car and a great driver, as a result, the fans get sucked in and start actually believing the hype until the myth gets shattered.

Let's just be honest for a second. When did Kimi Raikonnen ever prove he was the fastest driver in F1? This myth was made up and started in 2005 by Martin Brundle when the Ferrari of Schumacher was not a title contender and Raikonnen was in yet another Adrian Newey designed rocketship, never in a million years did i ever see anything from Kimi Raikonnen to suggest he was Michael Schumacher fast, but no, fanboys and media alike lapped it up.

Do people remember those who with a straight face suggested that Michael Schumacher retired because he was scared of facing Kimi Raikonnen in the same car Seriously.....that was a heavily subscribed to theory, which of course, was pure hype and nothing else.

Kimi comes to Ferrari and it then becomes quickly apparent that he can barely handle Felipe Massa...let alone schumacher, he got kicked out of Ferrari for not being a good enough lead driver.

Now after this, you would think people start to get a bit of perspective on Raikonnen's ACTUAL ability level, but no! At the beggining of the season, I had a lovely chuckle reading all the so called experts telling me "Raikonnen is going to outqualify alonso regulary, Raikonnen is too fast for Alonso, Alonso will implode etc etc".

Again, based on what? The guy was life and death with Massa, and people seriously expected him to deal with Fernando Alonso. Why are people suprised by what is happening at the moment, Alonso is doing what he has been doing for years, making the car look much more competitive than it actually is and making teammates look alot worse than they actually are, case in point, even Massa was doing a better job alongside Alonso than Raikonnen currently is.

Lewis Hamilton....I rate him, HIGHLY, but again,slightly over hyped driver, you will often hear "He destroyed Alonso in the same car"....when in reality 2007 was probably Lewis Hamilton's best ever season in formula one to date, if you look at the speed and CONSISTENCY he showed, I don't believe he has ever shown that level since 2007, it's hard to judge now when he has a rocketship 1 sec per lap faster than everyone else, so for me, 2007 was probably his best season bar this one. And yet Alonso, who I personally do not think was at his peak (Alonso's peak would come at Ferrari in my view) and was clearly NOT favoured by the team amist accusations of tampering with his tyre pressures and team that pretty much turned on him (some of this his own doing no doubt)........despite this, he was equal on points, wins, and I think even second places with Hamilton, I believe Hamilton got the edge due to an extra 3rd place.

And yet....you will hear "Hamilton DESTROYED ALONSO as a rookie"....when In my view what really happened was that Lewis Hamilton finished neck and neck with Alonso after having his most consistent season in his entire career prior to this one, before this year Hamilton has never had a season as good as 2007 in my eyes and Alonso has improved as a driver since 2007, Not for one second saying Hamilton is not an eilte driver, what I am saying is that he's a bit a myth and fanboys latching onto him getting one more 3rd place than Alonso nearly 7 years ago, as proof of him being this unbeatable monster is just ridiculous....

A fact shown by none other than Jenson Button who went onto beat Lewis Hamilton in equal machinery.

One other thing about Hamilton, he is a bit of a choker, people seem to forget in 2007, he did choke away the title in China and in the final race of the season, he was one corner away from choking the title in 2008 and in 2010 he was actually right in the championship hunt, however the pressure got to him and he was involved in a number of botched overtaking attempts that led to multiple DNF's and led to him taking himself out of the title picture.

Again, not saying Hamilton isnt one of the best or the best, I'm saying the media and fans make up these stories or myths in their head about their favourite drivers when the actual EVIDENCE suggests otherwise.

Vettel in my opinion has managed to trump Raikonnen as the most overrated driver of this ERA of F1, again, all the EVIDENCE ever suggested was that he was faster than Mark Webber, that was it, there was never any evidence to suggest he was faster than Hamilton or Alonso, again nothing but Media HYPE and sensationlist journalism.

Now every sunday I have to read page after page of excuse from Raikonnen and Vettel supporters blaming the most ridiculous things on why their heroes are being exposed....

"He needs the steering this way or he's no good"
"He needs tons of downforce at the rear or he's no good"
"The tyres don't suit him, so he's no good until they sort them out"


Instead of making excuses, why certain individuals both in the media and out of it just man up and be honest and say

"You know what, we got it wrong, Vettel is not the 8th greatest F1 driver in History, he's just a very good driver who made use of one of the strongest cars ever seen in Formula one".

"Actually, Raikonnen will likely struggle against Alonso, because he really struggled against Felipe Massa a few years back in the same car"

"Actually Lewis Hamilton may be the fastest driver over a single lap, but there are question marks over his consistency over a season and how he handles pressure in key situations"

The problem is, they don't.

They just over-hype their favs too much until the truth comes out and then we have to hear 1 million excuses as to why their "expert opinions" are not rooted in any reality.

That is my humble opinion.

[ernos5]

You are spot on! That's exactly how it is, give or take a little.

This season is almost a repeat of the Brawn GP season...

[Richard]

That is my humble opinion.

That's also the humble objective of this forum, driver hype gets short shrift here. Most championships are decided by the car.

[kooleracer]

That is my humble opinion.

You do realize that driver aren't robots right? Every car is different and not all cars suit every driver/ drive-style. Having said that I totally agree with you on Seb Vettel. I don't understand how the journo's called him worldclass while he was racing against Mark Webber (who is really average). Thats why I have that Eddy Irvine quote as an signature. A lot of people don't understand how good Newey cars are. Vettel enjoyed the most dominant car in F1 history and still people close their eyes to that fact. A lot a people will say he won in Monza in the rain in a Toro Rosso, but that Toro Rosso had an Newey chasis and a Ferrari Engine which a better package then the Red Bull with the Renault engine. The matter of the fact is that Newey cars flatter driver performance.

But i don't know how you can call Hamilton a hype and not see that he indeed destroyed Alonso. He came in as an rookie against an 2 time world champion with a lot of experience that was considered at that moment one the greatest for beating Schumacher twice. To do what he did was unheard off, you cannot belittle that performance. Also with the statement "that Lewis is only quick on one lap", you're actually sounding like one of the journo's, who also say Lewis is hard on his car and he cannot adapt to this new formula.
Lewis Hamilton karting and racing record in junior formula's don't lie. He has dominated in every category he raced in because he can adapt to any car he drives. For me Lewis Hamilton is without any doubt the fastest driver on the grid on a single lap and in race trim.

Alonso is without doubt the second best driver on the gird, but the as documented in 2007 he can't cope with the raw pace off Lewis Hamilton. The fact is that Alonso had race winning cars in 2010 and 2012 and he threw the championship away twice lets not forget that. People always start to moan about the slow the ferrari was he was driving but the matter of the fact is that he had 2 good cars and through mistakes and a lack of talent in 2010 (pertrov) he missed both opportunities. Great driver but if Hamilton was in that car in 2010 behind Petrov we all know what would have happened.

Conclusion don't live in the hype of what these journo's write because they have to write a story because its their job. Hopefully people now do understand how big the Newey effect was in the case of Vettel and start seeing the talent of true great talents like Hamilton and Alonso.

[Ultra_Tech]

That is my humble opinion.

But i don't know how you can call Hamilton a hype and not see that he indeed destroyed Alonso. He came in as an rookie against an 2 time world champion with a lot of experience that was considered at that moment one the greatest for beating Schumacher twice. To do what he did was unheard off, you cannot belittle that performance. Also with the statement "that Lewis is only quick on one lap", you're actually sounding like one of the journo's, who also say Lewis is hard on his car and he cannot adapt to this new formula.

Alonso is without doubt the second best driver on the gird, but the as documented in 2007 he can't cope with the raw pace off Lewis Hamilton. The fact is that Alonso had race winning cars in 2010 and 2012 and he threw the championship away twice lets not forget that.

Had to stop reading here, sorry, but this is TEXTBOOK example of people believing myth's about their own favorite drivers.

2007 is Lewis Hamiltons Best all around season in terms of consistency and speed in my opinion, he was in a team that he grew up with was nurtured by and was clearly the team favourite. Despite all these factors he finished Equal on points, Equal on Wins and Equal in Second places with Alonso.

In what universe does this equate to "Hamilton destroying Alonso" and Alonso being "without doubt" the second best driver on grid.

In that case Jenson Button must also be better than Alonso right as he ACTUALLY beat Lewis (outscored him) over a season right?

This is part of the problem, drivers being over-hyped to levels when the evidence suggests otherwise.

Let's look at Alonso for example, my favourite driver by far right now.

When did he beat Micheal Schumacher twice ? Schumacher didn't have anywhere near a title contending car in 2005, so how did Alonso "beat schumacher twice".

He never did, that was just media hype from a media bitter over 5 years of Schumacher domination attempting to get it's own back.

This is kind of stuff I am talking about, drivers being overhyped when the evidence just doesn't justify it.

[wesley123]

Had to stop reading here, sorry, but this is TEXTBOOK example of people believing myth's about their own favorite drivers.

He ended the season with exactly the same amount of points as the great Alonso, I don't see how you cannot find that impressive. He did so in his rookie year and I see you praising Alonso. He was the equal of the great and mighty Alonso, so if Hamilton's performance would be a myth, then so would be Alonso's

In what universe does this equate to "Hamilton destroying Alonso" and Alonso being "without doubt" the second best driver on grid.

The fact that an inexperienced rookie defeats the allmighty Alonso in the final standings.

In that case Jenson Button must also be better than Alonso right as he ACTUALLY beat Lewis (outscored him) over a season right?

Hamilton wasn't at his peak then. You justify this as an excuse for Alonso in 2007, so why can't this apply to Hamilton?

When did he beat Micheal Schumacher twice ? Schumacher didn't have anywhere near a title contending car in 2005, so how did Alonso "beat schumacher twice".

2005 and 2006.

He never did, that was just media hype from a media bitter over 5 years of Schumacher domination attempting to get it's own back.

He did, and whether you like it or not, the evidence DOES suggest it.

This is kind of stuff I am talking about, drivers being overhyped when the evidence just doesn't justify it.

But the evidence does suggest it.

[Waywardism]

Kooleracer, your arguements present a bit of a contradiction. On one hand you say the Redbull is the most dominant car in F1 history, on the other you say Alonso threw away 2 championships in this period through lack of talent. Surely if Redbull's car was so dominant then it would take a hell of a lot of talent to contend for the title in the first place.

Wesley, why do you have the impression that he finds Hamilton's 2007 performance as unimpressive? He never said that.

I think the original post was pretty much spot on. As a Hamilton fan I've been anxious all season as to whether he's going to lose his head and throw it all away. Time will tell, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the racing-related hardships he's faced in the last few years have helped him to find a strength he used to lack.

[kooleracer]

2007 is Lewis Hamiltons Best all around season in terms of consistency and speed in my opinion, he was in a team that he grew up with was nurtured by and was clearly the team favourite. Despite all these factors he finished Equal on points, Equal on Wins and Equal in Second places with Alonso.

He grew up in them, what has that do with anything? Hamilton being the favorite, has McLaren ever chosen one driver over another driver in their history? NO! Please don't turn a blind eye to the fact Hamilton was a rookie and beat Alonso fair and square. Even though they had both 109 points if Fernando is as good you think he is he should have dealt with Hamilton no excuses. Hamilton was nurtured by McLaren what kind off stupid facts are those.....Magnussen is also nurtured by McLaren and look how he is doing, you can nurture all you like but you can't make good driver a talented driver. Please stop making false statements Lewis beat Jenson in 2010, 2012 he got beat in 2011. But like I said drivers aren't robots.

I am no Hamilton fan boy, but Lewis Hamilton is the first driver I have seen with the raw talent of Schumacher. Alonso is quick but look at 2007 Hamilton got 6 pole's Alonso 2. Hamilton can drag the maximum out of car easier then Alonso. Like Schumacher use to do in the 1 hour quali session. Those are facts mate. Without knowing if this is true, but I confident to say that Lewis Hamilton has never been out-qualified by any of his team mates during the whole season.

[Ultra_Tech]

He ended the season with exactly the same amount of points as the great Alonso, I don't see how you cannot find that impressive. He did so in his rookie year and I see you praising Alonso. He was the equal of the great and mighty Alonso, so if Hamilton's performance would be a myth, then so would be Alonso's

In what universe does this equate to "Hamilton destroying Alonso" and Alonso being "without doubt" the second best driver on grid.

The fact that an inexperienced rookie defeats the allmighty Alonso in the final standings.

In that case Jenson Button must also be better than Alonso right as he ACTUALLY beat Lewis (outscored him) over a season right?

Hamilton wasn't at his peak then. You justify this as an excuse for Alonso in 2007, so why can't this apply to Hamilton?




Classic Bank Holidays laughs here and the usual over-hyping to boot.

1. NOWHERE did I say Hamiltons achievements in 2007 were not impressive, they were....what I am saying is that certain indviduals like to advance the case of "Hamilton destroying Alonso" whilst conveniently forgetting key facts like the driver finishing equal on points, wins and second places and also inter-team friction caused by the team boss favoring one driver over another.

To put it simply, finishing on equal points, wins and second places does not equal one driver "Destroying" another.

Another convienant fact the Hamilton fanboys seem to forget because it suits their argument is that "Rookie" Lewis never had a better all round season then 2007 ever again until he got a car more than 1 second per lap than the rest of the field.

2. Of course when I bring up that Jenson Button beat a "Non-Rookie" Lewis Hamilton in the same cars....(or should be say "DESTROYED"him ? lol) of course that's because Hamilton "wasn't at his peak"... No such excuses allowed for Alonso though, he was having the time of his life at McLaren with Uncle Ron Dennis's Lewis Hamilton lovefest right?

Infact, if you don't believe me, let's see what ex mclaren driver david coulthard says in his chinese GP review.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/27101735

That continues to add weight to just what a good driver he is and it's worth pointing out that only at McLaren with Hamilton, in 2007, has a team-mate really given him any trouble.
It's not that one was better than the other; it's that Alonso was not in a happy place back then. He was given the big honeymoon by Ron Dennis and then got jilted at the altar because Dennis turned his attentions to Hamilton.

3. Alonso never "Beat Schumacher Twice", not in the way the media are portraying it, Schumacher wasn't even in the title race in 2005 because his car wouldn't allow it. It's a really stupid thing to say, it's like saying "Mark Webber beat Lewis Hamilton twice" .....or "Rubens Barrichello beat Lewis Hamilton in 2009"....

What actually happened was that the driver with the faster car finished above the driver with the slower car in the standing, none of these "battles" were direct battles because the cars were not on the same level.

This is my point. It's all HYPE, hardly any of it is based on any evidence and result is that you get over-hyped drivers and over hyped performances......which eventually get shattered.

That is what you are seeing this year with Vettel and Raikonnen in my opinion.

[kooleracer]

Kooleracer, your arguements present a bit of a contradiction. On one hand you say the Redbull is the most dominant car in F1 history, on the other you say Alonso threw away 2 championships in this period through lack of talent. Surely if Redbull's car was so dominant then it would take a hell of a lot of talent to contend for the title in the first place.

Wesley, why do you have the impression that he finds Hamilton's 2007 performance as unimpressive? He never said that.

I think the original post was pretty much spot on. As a Hamilton fan I've been anxious all season as to whether he's going to lose his head and throw it all away. Time will tell, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the racing-related hardships he's faced in the last few years have helped him to find a strength he used to lack.

Not a contradiction. Vettel was in Newey car fact, but some RB's were better (more dominant) then others, fact. In 2010 Alonso was behind a Renault not a Newey car, fact. Alonso was in the faster Ferrari, fact. If you can't overtake a driver when you WC is depending on it in a faster car. Then i can't consider you better then a bloke who did that same thing in 2008 in brazil on the last lap passed Glock for the title, fact.

I agree with Ultra_tech on the whole media hype about Vettel. But how can you make this statement: "2007 is Lewis Hamiltons Best all around season in terms of consistency and speed in my opinion, he was in a team that he grew up with was nurtured by and was clearly the team favourite" to justify why Alonso got a hard time against the rookie Hamilton when the name of the topic is "I Don't Buy Into All These Excuses" that is the real contradiction here.

[turbof1]

@Ultra_tech: I agree over the line (I'm a Hamilton fan, but I do believe at some points during his career there was too much hype), but I couldn't help noticing you didn't judge Alonso. Is this you 'hyping' Alonso without saying it, or just forgetting about him?

And what about Rosberg? I feel he's actually being underrated. People always said Hamilton would destroy him, yet he makes Hamilton's life very difficult at times.

I'm just going to throw something in here, and I hope I don't get beaten up for it: Was Ayrton Senna overhyped? With all due respect, what happened to him was tragic, but did his death contributed to the legend media made of him? Like artists being so famous after their passing away?

[Ultra_Tech]

Not a contradiction. Vettel was in Newey car fact, but some RB's were better (more dominant) then others, fact. In 2010 Alonso was behind a Renault not a Newey car, fact. Alonso was in the faster Ferrari, fact. If you can't overtake a driver when you WC is depending on it in a faster car. Then i can't consider you better then a bloke who did that same thing in 2008 in brazil on the last lap passed Glock for the title, fact.

You failed here again

In Abu Dhabi the renualt was faster on the straights than the Ferrari, infact, Lewis Hamilton spent a HUGE part of the race unable to overtake the renault of Robert Kubica........despite having the overall faster car......because the Renaults were so fast on the straights.



Does this mean Hamilton is a failure too? Or is it down to car characteristics?

Another thing people seem to forget is that even it Alonso passed Petrov, he stil l would NOT have won the title, he needed to pass a number of cars in front including rosberg I believe, but again, Petrov on the straights was untouchable, Alonso could hardly even put a move on him.

But people ignore the key points.....and go for HYPE

"Alonso is crap, couldnt even pass petrov to win the title"

[sAx]

Maybe the view of a current driver is important here ...Alonso on Hamilton....!

“Who is the strongest driver? My answer is Hamilton. It was true last year, it was true this year,” he told the audience.

“It is a personal opinion, not political, not to make people think something. Who is the strongest opponent, the strongest driver on grid? Who is the one you have to keep an eye on? It is Hamilton – and it will still be Hamilton next year.

“He is a super good driver because he won every year with any car: he won in 2007 and 2008. In 2009 they started around two seconds off the pace with the McLaren, and Hamilton was able to win races – and it was the same in 2010. Last year also Nico we saw winning in China with Mercedes. So with Hamilton he will be able to win more than one race.”

Source....http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2013/01/c ... ee-titles/

[Waywardism]

the renualt was faster on the straights than the Ferrari, infact, Lewis Hamilton spent a HUGE part of the race unable to overtake the renault of Robert Kubica........despite having the overall faster car......because the Renaults were so fast on the straights.

Pretty much what I was going to say.

And don't forget Trulli in 2008 was crawling round very slowly.

[kooleracer]

Not a contradiction. Vettel was in Newey car fact, but some RB's were better (more dominant) then others, fact. In 2010 Alonso was behind a Renault not a Newey car, fact. Alonso was in the faster Ferrari, fact. If you can't overtake a driver when you WC is depending on it in a faster car. Then i can't consider you better then a bloke who did that same thing in 2008 in brazil on the last lap passed Glock for the title, fact.

You failed here again

In Abu Dhabi the renualt was faster on the straights than the Ferrari, infact, Lewis Hamilton spent a HUGE part of the race unable to overtake the renault of Robert Kubica........despite having the overall faster car......because the Renaults were so fast on the straights.



Does this mean Hamilton is a failure too? Or is it down to car characteristics?

Another thing people seem to forget is that even it Alonso passed Petrov, he stil l would NOT have won the title, he needed to pass a number of cars in front including rosberg I believe, but again, Petrov on the straights was untouchable, Alonso could hardly even put a move on him.

But people ignore the key points.....and go for HYPE

"Alonso is crap, couldnt even pass petrov to win the title"

The Renault faster then the Ferrari....And yet Alonso finished 0.2 seconds behind Petrov........during FP2,3 and Quali Alonso was faster then both Renault and in the race it was faster then the Ferrari sounds like an excuse to me. Please read the name of the topic you created "I Don't Buy Into All These Excuses". I certainly don't buy yours m8.

Also i never called Alonso crap or bad, i just state that I think [MY OPINION based upon 2007 up to 2014] Hamilton is the fastest driver on the current grid an Alonso is a close second. And that Vettel is no were near being in the top 10 drivers off all time even tough he won 4 WC's.