If Vettel performs poorly this year... what will that mean?

[Gerhard Berger]

If Vettel performs poorly this year… what will that mean?
Simple, the stars simply did not align. This is why every WDC is special, no matter what car you’re in.

If what you are angling at is misfortune, I would point to him being the most fortunate driver in F1 history.
1 year in a torro rosso that was better than the Red Bull in 2008, then into the rb5 of 2009 which was the second quickest car over the season, and then the fastest(best)car 4 years running.

As Alonso said, it will be how he performs in a mediocre car that will define him.
Still too early to call how he is doing after 4 races, but it doesn't look great.

Well, just because Alonso said, so yeah, that must be the measure of how we define him. Honestly? You've decided to take Vettels arguably biggest competitor and proclaim forth his word as gospel?

If Vettel performed poorly in the RB5, 6, 7, 8 & 9 - this thread has merit - because another poor year in awesome machinery is very questionable indeed. Come to terms with the fact that the guy did everything that was asked from him since managing to get his bum in a F1 seat. How the Red Bull team measure performance certainly has more merit than Alonso's word.

Personally, I don't like Vettel. However, I dislike the continuous false and biased reasons for trying to belittle his accomplishments even more. Having the best car means nothing if you can't convert the win - just ask Rosberg.

It's not only Alonso who said it. Ross Brawn said it too. He knows a thing or two about F1 drivers.

[beelsebob]

It's not only Alonso who said it. Ross Brawn said it too. He knows a thing or two about F1 drivers.

Everyone with a brain said it, because you don't need to be an expert on the subject to realise that repeatedly winning in the best car only proves one thing - you're better than your team mate.

[Pierce89]

I agree with WhiteBlue and the world didn't implode that must mean something. You are trying to judge a 4 time world champion by three bad races. How many other world champions have had a few bad races or even bad years. This driver hate/worship is getting out of hand here.

No one is judging Vettel on three races. They're using these races, where Vettel is lacking a huge advantage on the field, to adjust our oppinion we've built over time. That's normal. I've also not seen many comments that were out of hand. Besides, many people believe that Vettel was never the best driver. Is that hate?

[kooleracer]

Vettel and Ricciardo have only finished 2 races together. In both races Ricciardo had the upper-hand. Also Riccardio has out-qualified Vettel so far 3-1. Vettel has been outstanding in qualifying against Mark Webber but Daniel has started off really strong. But I think its to early in this season to make final judgments about how good or bad Vettel is. I think we should forget the first 4 races because both cars had some gremlins in the race or during qualifying. Lets see how the dynamic is after the RB10 has got its big upgrade in Spain. Then we can clearly judge both drivers on a level playing field. I can't remeber which season it was but Mark Webber was faster and after some updates the roles were reversed again. But one thing is certain if Ricciardo beats Vettel this year, his four WC's will loose a lot of shine and people will start to question is ability. He has to beat Ricciardo clearly, to give is WC's merit because Daniel isn't a bad driver we saw that in the Toro Rosso.

[Juzh]

I can't remeber which season it was but Mark Webber was faster and after some updates the roles were reversed again.

First couple of races in 2012? Or maybe you're talking about spain and monaco in 2010 when vettel was racing with a cracked chassis.

[basti313]

It's not only Alonso who said it. Ross Brawn said it too. He knows a thing or two about F1 drivers.

Everyone with a brain said it, because you don't need to be an expert on the subject to realise that repeatedly winning in the best car only proves one thing - you're better than your team mate.

You are right.
And the question is: Which driver did bring more than mediocre performance in a mediocre car?
If we look at the last years, not biased by anything anyone says, then we see, that from 2007 till now the Redbull, the McLaren and the Ferrari were the cars to have, with the Merc replacing the McL from last year on and the Brawn in 2009.

Now we go for bias:
If we look in a positive way we can say:
-Alonso and Vettel had incredible drives in Monza and Fuji 2008.
-Hamilton winning 2008 with an incredible chase in the wet in the last race up to the last corner.
-Raikkonen beating the mighty McLarens in 2007.
-Rosberg doing incredible drives to win in China and Monaco 2012.
-Vettel being the best driver ever to manage the EBD.

And if we look at these years in a very negative way we will see noone did a more than mediocre performance in the last years:
-Vettel not being able to adapt to the new car and throwing away the title in 2009 with avoidable crashs.
-Alonso throwing away the title three times by blocking Hamilton in 2007, a poor performance in the beginning of 2010 and an avoidable crash in 2012.
-Hamilton completely spoiling season 2011, being outperformed in several occasions 2013 by Rosberg and throwing away the title 2007 by crashing/switching off his car.
-Raikkonen throwing away the title in 2008 by a poor second half of the season.
-Rosberg now being outperformed in the race for the WC three times in a row.

But is this really the way how you want to look at Formula1 drivers? Always biased in one direction switching between positive or negative point of view to support your opinion?

[FoxHound]

You are right.
And the question is: Which driver did bring more than mediocre performance in a mediocre car?

Alonso IMO

If we look at the last years, not biased by anything anyone says, then we see, that from 2007 till now the Redbull, the McLaren and the Ferrari were the cars to have, with the Merc replacing the McL from last year on and the Brawn in 2009.

Why 2007?
If you are talking Vettel in Red Bull it's 2009. Or Vettel in F1 it's 2008.

Now we go for bias:
If we look in a positive way we can say:
-Alonso and Vettel had incredible drives in Monza and Fuji 2008.
-Hamilton winning 2008 with an incredible chase in the wet in the last race up to the last corner.
-Raikkonen beating the mighty McLarens in 2007.
-Rosberg doing incredible drives to win in China and Monaco 2012.
-Vettel being the best driver ever to manage the EBD.

This is a loaded dice argument. Everyone has different views as to what constitutes the standout performance of a driver.
Also, Vettel the best ever to manage EBD? Since when did everyone get the same EBD system? That would be tantamount to comparing the Virgin to the Red Bull and making deductions solely based on driver performance.
In a word, just plain wrong. I see someone also noted it to be "informative" by upvoting it..... [-o<

And if we look at these years in a very negative way we will see noone did a more than mediocre performance in the last years:
-Vettel not being able to adapt to the new car and throwing away the title in 2009 with avoidable crashs.
-Alonso throwing away the title three times by blocking Hamilton in 2007, a poor performance in the beginning of 2010 and an avoidable crash in 2012.
-Hamilton completely spoiling season 2011, being outperformed in several occasions 2013 by Rosberg and throwing away the title 2007 by crashing/switching off his car.
-Raikkonen throwing away the title in 2008 by a poor second half of the season.
-Rosberg now being outperformed in the race for the WC three times in a row.

Alonso throwing away 3 titles? please do elaborate on these 3 titles.
Hamilton "spoiling" 2011? Can you delve further?
Outperformed by Rosberg "several times" last year? I'm reading that Hamilton beat Rosberg on points and in qualifying last year. Does this intimate that a Champion should at no time be beaten by his team mate? Especially one of the calibre of Rosberg?

But is this really the way how you want to look at Formula1 drivers? Always biased in one direction switching between positive or negative point of view to support your opinion?

No, we just need to find out why by using all the information we have available.

There is a suspicion amongst many F1 fans that Vettel is not as good as his record suggests. Equally, there is a staunch following of Vettel fans that he is the real deal.
We know Red Bull to have the finest aerodynamic brain in Newey. We know they also they invented(with Renault) the EBD.
We know he has had the best equipment for the vast majority of his time as Champion.
No different to MSC or Senna, Prost etc.

But here is the thing.
Has any driver enjoyed such an advantage for this length of time at such a young age? We can try compare MSC in his Benneton days, but there is a massive problem in that Williams actually had the better car for most of 94 and 95.
Schumacher also famously drove round a track stuck in 5th gear for the 94 title.
So in answer to that question, I cannot think of anyone at the age of 26 who has had 4 successive seasons of a car capable of winning the title, all things being equal.
If anyone can prove me wrong on this, I'd happily cede.

None of this is actually bad for Vettel. He was given the tools and did the job, dominating his team mate and breaking all kinds of records. So Kudos to him for that.
What I'm interested in is not the records, but what he would have done with a Rosberg, a Ricciardo or even a Hamilton or Alonso next to him.
Would he still be the 4 time champ in the face of greater internal adversity, rather than the somewhat muted Webber?
A big question.

But I think it is one that can be answered.

[Writinglife]

My two pennies worth

Vettel has had an absolutely fantastic start to his career. He settled into a car that perfectly fit his requirements. Newey's car flatters his talent immensely, but this isn't the end of the question. Vettel is intelligent enough, dominant enough and forceful enough to dictate terms to his team. and this was because he showed out on track that he deserved to call the shots. His team hasn't always agreed with him, and his teammates haven't either, but at the end of the championship, he's been on top 4 times in a row because he's had the completely package. (His level of skill, his desire, his team, his car) However, like Schumacher for much of his career, he's hidden the part of himself that might be considered weak. his personality. We've seen the momentary tantrums on track, the poor decisions, the anger and jealousy and that damned finger, but these things are the extremes.

Does anyone wonder why Vettel does so many "personal time" interviews with Sky or BBC? Red Bull can see that his attitude (the winner) on track has a negative impact for some viewers, and they want us to see what he's really like inside, outside of the car. Hamilton and Button have a large number as well, because of their status as British WD Champs, but Red Bull seem to be desperate to show us who Vettel is really. Many people tell us he's a great guy, that's he's friendly and approachable, but its hard for us to compare this when we see him ignoring the Multi 21, his "tough luck" comments. That's his drive to win everything he possibly can.

Could Vettel have coped with Hamilton or Alonso or even Senna as a teammate? I don't believe so. Not this early in his career. I think, like Alonso at McLaren, he would not have coped well with having someone alongside him in the garage who is capable to pushing him to the very limit of his skill, but in reality, it's what might actually stop us asking these questions of his talent. I hope Ricciardo can do this, Push him right to the ragged edge and show us if Vettel is a paper champion in a dominant car, or another Schumacher, Senna or Fangio who is capable of great things.

[Dragonfly]

If Vettel performs poorly this year... what will that mean?

It will mean exactly that and nothing else.
Those guys are human after all and I am asking have you ever asked yourselves what it is to be on the very top for four consecutive years while everyone is trying to throw you down from there?

[basti313]

You are right.
And the question is: Which driver did bring more than mediocre performance in a mediocre car?

Alonso IMO

Why? The last time he had a mediocre car was the 2009 Renault. Any more than mediocre performances this season?
In the mediocre 2008 Renault he had an extraordinary drive...enough?
Talking about extraordinary drives when one of the NR1 drivers of this century drive a car to the podium/win that also can be driven to podiums from Massa (the driver who got sacked for performing poor) is not very extraordinary for me. And I do not see wins/podiums in the last years that were "fights" but just the normal pace of the car in the race.

If we look at the last years, not biased by anything anyone says, then we see, that from 2007 till now the Redbull, the McLaren and the Ferrari were the cars to have, with the Merc replacing the McL from last year on and the Brawn in 2009.

Why 2007?
If you are talking Vettel in Red Bull it's 2009. Or Vettel in F1 it's 2008.

Because of tires. Most people even lack of a serious and reasonable rating of the cars on the same tires. So it is rather useless to talk about the time with the tire fight. This has nothing to do with Vettel.

Now we go for bias:
If we look in a positive way we can say:
-Alonso and Vettel had incredible drives in Monza and Fuji 2008.
-Hamilton winning 2008 with an incredible chase in the wet in the last race up to the last corner.
-Raikkonen beating the mighty McLarens in 2007.
-Rosberg doing incredible drives to win in China and Monaco 2012.
-Vettel being the best driver ever to manage the EBD.

This is a loaded dice argument. Everyone has different views as to what constitutes the standout performance of a driver.
Also, Vettel the best ever to manage EBD? Since when did everyone get the same EBD system? That would be tantamount to comparing the Virgin to the Red Bull and making deductions solely based on driver performance.
In a word, just plain wrong. I see someone also noted it to be "informative" by upvoting it..... [-o<

So you do not get the clear and intended exaggeration and downvote it

But is this really the way how you want to look at Formula1 drivers? Always biased in one direction switching between positive or negative point of view to support your opinion?

No, we just need to find out why by using all the information we have available.

Using all the information for Alonso?

There is a suspicion amongst many F1 fans that Vettel is not as good as his record suggests. Equally, there is a staunch following of Vettel fans that he is the real deal.

What do you mean with "the real deal"? It is rather obvious, that Vettel is among the Nr1 drivers of this century. All other "suspicions" or "the best" exaggerations are nonsense like they are for the other Nr1 drivers.
We have the same nonsense with Prost and Senna. Both performed equal in an equal car, but most people prefer Senna over Prost....

But here is the thing.

If you shake your head long enough, you will always find a hair in the soup.

Has any driver enjoyed such an advantage for this length of time at such a young age? We can try compare MSC in his Benneton days, but there is a massive problem in that Williams actually had the better car for most of 94 and 95.
Schumacher also famously drove round a track stuck in 5th gear for the 94 title.
So in answer to that question, I cannot think of anyone at the age of 26 who has had 4 successive seasons of a car capable of winning the title, all things being equal.
If anyone can prove me wrong on this, I'd happily cede.

This is typical hindsight bias:
-Vettels WCs were all a walk in the park
-the other cars, especially the Ferrari, were crap

But the reality was:
-close fights against Webber and Alonso in WC (2010 and 2012)
-many close fights on the track (remember the end of 2012?)
-leading the first half of 2013 without having the best car

Especially 2012 was one of the most equal years in Formula1. Redbull, Ferrari, McLaren and Lotus were all capable of winning the WC. Lotus spoiled it by poor straight line speed and McLaren by poor reliability in the end with a fight between Alonso and Vettel to the last race. Great season.

What I'm interested in is not the records, but what he would have done with a Rosberg, a Ricciardo or even a Hamilton or Alonso next to him.
Would he still be the 4 time champ in the face of greater internal adversity, rather than the somewhat muted Webber?
A big question.

If we would have the record and Vettel would have not beaten or being equal with Alonso or Hamilton...would you count him as an extraordinary driver or not? Because for Alonso it seems this is not relevant for you...

But I think it is one that can be answered.

No it can not be answered, because this is a ridiculous question.
Just look at Senna in this stupid way:
-Great drives in a Toleman in the rain as Vettel did in the Torro
-Third place with a Lotus that was the second best car
-Won with the incredible MP4/4 and its successors
-Crashed the Williams until his death
This is complete nonsense if you look away from the details if it helps your opinion and you can do this with every driver.

[Emerson.F]

Nico: What happened to Vettel?

[Richard]

We're not learning anything new here.