Driver Excuses

[MOWOG]

Ultra Tech started a thread that quickly degenerated into a morass a fanboyism at its worst. I actually don't understand why people feel compelled to waste the energy on such bloviating, but apparently most simply are incapable of exercising restraint.

Anyone, the mods decided to lock that thread - and rightly so - before I got to post a comment. The nub of the discussion is NOT whether Kimi is better than Fittipaldi or Alonso could outpace Jim Clark in similar cars. The POINT of the discussion should be that back in the last Ice Age, when I was young, a driver was expected to adapt to the car and not the other way around.

Your new ride has the clutch mounted in the middle between the brake and the gas pedal? So? Get used to it. Drive the car or do something else. Do you think any of the poor bastards who had to pilot the mighty but evil handling Silver Arrows in the 30's came back into the pits complaining that the car suffered from too much oversteer?

And speaking of oversteer, time was that having the skill to manage a Porsche 911 was considered a badge of honor for a driver. Today, Porsche advertises the 911 as a school bus, perfectly safe for mom and the kiddies.

So, Ultra Tech, I agree with you. There is too much bellyaching by the current generation of drivers. The brakes don't feel quite right. There is not enough front end grip. The back end is too twitchy. The steering is too light. The steering us too heavy. And on and on and on. It never ends, which is what i think Ultra Tech was trying to say.

Over the past several years, drivers are getting to Formula One at younger and younger ages. It used to be that teams preferred drivers with years of experience, but now, 19 year old are strolling the paddock with their driving gloves firmly laced up. And I have wondered why that should be.

Clearly, there are more development opportunities for young drivers and that helps. But I suggest that the cars today are simply easier to drive, making raw driving talent less critical than in the past. And so, if you fanboys can resist mouthing off in strident fashion about your favorite driver, perhaps we could discuss this like adults? Ultra Tech posed an excellent question that deserves consideration, imho. If the mods disagree, well, so be it.

[JimClarkFan]

I mostly actually agreed with Ultra Tech as well.

There was an additional point though, and that is the lack of objective judgement from some.

Anyways.... I felt he was spot on regarding more than a few things though I feel much of those kinds of fans are on other forums.

[oT v1]

And speaking of oversteer, time was that having the skill to manage a Porsche 911 was considered a badge of honor for a driver. Today, Porsche advertises the 911 as a school bus, perfectly safe for mom and the kiddies.

So, Ultra Tech, I agree with you. There is too much bellyaching by the current generation of drivers. The brakes don't feel quite right. There is not enough front end grip. The back end is too twitchy. The steering is too light. The steering us too heavy. And on and on and on. It never ends, which is what i think Ultra Tech was trying to say.

But if the team can readily make changes that makes them go round the track quicker, should we really bemoan that?

I agree a kimi-style, sit through 2 sessions just to have a different rack, is a bit much but the small changes are necessary.

[turbof1]

There was an additional point though, and that is the lack of objective judgement from some.

Yes. Especially I had concerns about this. The previous topic started with taking a critical, but sound look at all drivers, except one who strangely didn't got the same treatment and was 'spared'. If you want to start such a discussion, then you need to stand neutral, even if it involves your favorite driver. I also think that from that biased view the previous topic quickly degenerated into bickering, although he wasn't alone in that regard.

This topic has started off much better in that regard. So hopefully that trend continues.

If we take a look at solely Kimi he indeed complains a lot about the steering. I can't remember him doing that when he was at Sauber or mclaren. Strange.
Hamilton the same last year: he didn't liked the braking and just wouldn't stop complaining about it. This year he still complains, but is luckily much more pro-active: instead of keep complaining about the same thing, he studies the data to see what can be done better.
I don't know if Alonso or Vettel are big complainers on that front. Vettel has the tendency to complain about race situations, but I don't recall him doing that in particular over the car.

[MOWOG]

if the team can readily make changes that makes them go round the track quicker, should we really bemoan that

No. Clearly chassis tuning, playing with spring rates and air pressures and all that are an integral part of the game. The most recent example I can give you is when Red Bull redesigned the aero package on their cars to better suit S. Vettel in mid-season. Up to that point, he and Webber were pretty equal. After that, Seb ran away and hid from Webber and the rest of the field. Why should a driver require the team to spend millions making the car more to his liking? Why shouldn't the driver be expected to adapt to the car?

And yes, Kimi is the worst recent example of this with his endless kvetching about the power steering unit. As Vettel would say, "Tough luck".

Get in the car you were given and drive it with all the skill and talent you possess. THAT is what makes a great driver. Do you remember Alonso pounding around at the back of the field in a quite dreadful Minardi for an entire season? I'm sure he gave the engineers an earful every time when the race was over, but when the lights went out, he put as much passion and effort into making that car perform as drivers in far better equipment.

Once again, this thread is not about who is the best driver ever. It's about whether some of these prima donnas "doth protest too much", as Billy Shakespeare would say.

I hope this thread doesn't deteriorate. I'm rather enjoying it. And we now have conditional mod approval. Let's not force them into pulling the plug on this thread. [-o<

[Dragonfly]

I hope this thread doesn't deteriorate.

I am afraid it will (if the parties are not already dead tired ). Such is the nature of such threads, too personal, too biased and subjective. And I think such threads should not have the rating system on.
I have my opinion, but will refrain from stating it for now.

[sennaf1god.94]

The F1 sport isn´t a game where you depend solely on yourself to beat your opponent.

Therefore other factors (potential excuses) other than the driver´s characteristics have a huge influence in any given result.

I remember pretty well when Patrese blamed being trashed by Mansell to all the "help" of the electronics behind his FW14B, particularly when he was pretty impressive a year before with the very same car without all that "helping"...

Also I remember the year 2001 when Renault was fighting Alonso´s Minardi to avoid finishing last every GP, and then suddenly at Spa the car was fighting for the victory.

All drivers since F1 is F1 depend on superior cars to xcell without xception, most of them overdrove crappy cars to find a place in such superior machinery without any other help than their family and self belief: Senna, Fisichella, Piquet, Hakkinen, Mansell, Raikkonen, Prost, Webber, Patrese, etc , BUT during the last decaces (when big manufacturers were running the sport) suddenly a minority gets the chance to drive it due to pure politics: Hill, Coulthard, Villeneuve, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Ricciardo, Massa, etc.

Not implying that the first are better than the second ones, just pointing that some people had insiders that made easy to them climbing through the F1 ladder, avoiding thus maturing their driving skills and artificially creating winners out of the hat.

While most of them can be worthy WDC´s there´s always a sword in their heads waiting for the right moment to fall: happenen to Villoo, to Hamilton, to Massa, to Alonso, and now it is Vettel´s time.

Most get over it and become even better drivers, and others simply fade into history.

[marcush.]

I´d guess this Sport is an Eldorado for People looking for excuses. Mysteriously some Drivers rarely complain(ed) and others are constant moaners yet it seems to work either ways.
Of course there is always the element of Equipment and Support troops helping or preventing a Driver from reaching his Goals .The key is to use all that to improve the Situation and steal borrow and motivate all involved or potentially involved to Support the Drivers drive to reach the pinnacle .some Drivers seem to find something extra within themselves Lifting them above those around them ...but can do so only under certain circumstances -eg Mansell in silverstone- Berger in Hockenheim - Drivers like Senna and Schumacher could pull that off every other Weekend and it lifts the whole Team on new Levels.
It´s not like -if I had his car and Team I´d be the champ -it´s going to the Team and making it yours so everyone is trying to win as hard as he the Driver is .Sure Maldonado has difficulties to even understand the concept let alone living it....

[MOWOG]

Good posts from SennaGod and Marcush. You both make excellent points that make a contribution to the discussion. =D>

I remember sometime after his first WDC, Alonso said he had raced with people in lower forms of racing who he considered better drivers then him. Mostly, it seems to be a matter of luck - who gets the right sponsor, the right endorsement or the right tie in with a national government. So perhaps we could say that not ALL first tier drivers ever get a seat in an F1 car. Those who miss the cut must curse their luck, as they would trade their best pair of stingback driving gloves for a chance in The Circus.

I bet those unlucky ones think they would never complain about the car if they were given an opportunity to strut their stuff. But they probably would anyway!

[turbof1]

Just to try to keep everything relaxed, I'll disable voting. Hopefully it'll ensure the topic continues as it is.

[Richard]

The most recent example I can give you is when Red Bull redesigned the aero package on their cars to better suit S. Vettel in mid-season. Up to that point, he and Webber were pretty equal. After that, Seb ran away and hid from Webber and the rest of the field. Why should a driver require the team to spend millions making the car more to his liking? Why shouldn't the driver be expected to adapt to the car?

I think you've answered your own question. In that example the changes resulted in a much faster car that pulled away from the rest of the field. It just happened the Vettel was the optimum driver-car combination. So that was money well spent.

On a more general note, I'm sure the drivers do adapt but the margins are so tiny nowadays that their personal preferences do show through. It's like most sportsmen can play in many positions in the team but they clearly excel in one position. Sure they can adapt to another position when they need to, but we know they're sub-optimal because the're not playing to their strengths.

[marcush.]

back to excuses....
Is it really fact the pinnacle of Driver is quick in anything on 4 wheels? I´m quite sure the guy dominating a series would say so .and the one struggling with one design would Resort to blaming the quirks of the car instead of questioning his own limitations.
A Sport which does flatly deny the usefulness of a Coach apart from Nutrition and Fitness is nothing for guys who question their abilities..So what goes on inside your head when the hero on the other side of the Garage is constantly outqualifying you with the same Equipment? Or your boffins mechanics and Team principal tell you that
Driver x who did win the Championship in this shitbox actually never complained about the nervous rear ?
I think those excuses are simply there to protect the Drivers ego ..to Keep him alive for the potential Turnaround when the car is Fitting and everything Slots in .Some are lucky enough to experience that Turnaround-Button is a good example -a capable Driver but nothing like an alltime great yet when he had a sniff at the Championship -and he had only 1 go -he delivered..

[Moxie]

On a more general note, I'm sure the drivers do adapt but the margins are so tiny nowadays that their personal preferences do show through. It's like most sportsmen can play in many positions in team but they clearly excel in one position. Sure they can adapt to another position when they need to, but we know it's not playing to their strengths.

I agree, and I'll add that an important part of the driver's responsibility is to provide input as to the car's behavior especially with the the sensitive aero and fragile tires of the modern era. It is also important to remember that we have not always been privy to this input. Remember last season Grosjean "complained" about the chassis. The team didn't believe him, but they gave him a new chassis to shut him up. Immediately his performance improved dramatically, and if I remember correctly the autopsy of the first chassis indicated damage did exist.

I respect Alonzo for taking a turd of a car and driving the crap out of it, but it should be recognized that the car is fastest when it is balanced properly.

[MOWOG]

the margins are so tiny nowadays that their personal preferences do show through.

That's an excellent point. Richard, and one that I did not give proper consideration to. But I still have trouble believing that someone who just started shaving last year, like Danny The Fiat, can plunk himself down in an unfamiliar car for the first time and be quick. I say the cars are easier to drive today, but it could just be that young Daniil has a boatload of talent and is the next Vettel or Schumacher.

[sennaf1god.94]

He has really been outstanding this season in all four grands prix this year. He has done a tremendous job.

His confidence is growing, he seems so calm in the car, his feedback is exceptional, and when he talks on the radio it is like he is in a coffee shop up the road.

He is enjoying what he is doing. He is enjoying being a grand prix driver, and he is enjoying driving for the team.

Last time I heard about a chap being so relaxed in a cockpit was when he was winning the second of his 7 WDC´s...