Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2014

[FoxHound]

There I was thinking that a multi podium winning engine was the ethos of competence.

We'll see if you think that in a few races time, when both RedBull drivers have received 10 place grid penalties several races running.

Its by far and away better than Red Bulls own engine, yes?

[beelsebob]

Its by far and away better than Red Bulls own engine, yes?

I'm really not sure how to respond to that... We have no idea how good an engine RedBull would make if they were to set up the facilities and hire the people.

[FoxHound]

I'm really not sure how to respond to that... We have no idea how good an engine RedBull would make if they were to set up the facilities and hire the people.

Who would they blame if they screwed up the engine? The spark plug manufacturers?

Incompetent: not having or showing the necessary skills to do something successfully.
Renault of Viry Chatillon are not incompetent.
Even in a year below their high standards, they have still managed 3 podiums(4 if you include Ricciardo's DSQ), 1 fastest lap and three 4th place finishes a fifth and a sixth.
Each time it's finished, it's inside the top 6.

So maybe your definition of incompetent is different to that of mine. Because if you measure incompetence the way you have done, where does this leave McLaren, who use the mighty merc V6 but sit behind Force India?

Oh look, they ain't winning....they must be incompetent.

Absolutely insane.

[beelsebob]

I'm really not sure how to respond to that... We have no idea how good an engine RedBull would make if they were to set up the facilities and hire the people.

Who would they blame if they screwed up the engine? The spark plug manufacturers?

Incompetent: not having or showing the necessary skills to do something successfully.
Renault of Viry Chatillon are not incompetent.
Even in a year below their high standards, they have still managed 3 podiums(4 if you include Ricciardo's DSQ), 1 fastest lap and three 4th place finishes a fifth and a sixth.
Each time it's finished, it's inside the top 6.

They have no produced a viable F1 engine. A viable F1 power unit is required to be able to run at least 4 races without its parts failing. It doesn't matter if it got a couple of podiums if it can't do the entire job it was designed for. The fact that they didn't do something successfully implies that they didn't have the skill to do it, and that they are indeed incompetent.

[bhall]

They have no produced a viable F1 engine. A viable F1 power unit is required to be able to run at least 4 races without its parts failing. It doesn't matter if it got a couple of podiums if it can't do the entire job it was designed for. The fact that they didn't do something successfully implies that they didn't have the skill to do it, and that they are indeed incompetent.

Bridgestone didn't produce "viable" tires in 2005, a fact of life that single-handledly brought Ferrari's four-year domination of the sport to a blistered halt. Would it have been appropriate for the Scuderia to somehow bill its supplier for losses, both real and imagined?

If so, what legal recourse does McLaren have available to address the engineer(s) who mistakenly fitted a part upside down on the MP4-28 that subsequently derailed its development in 2013?

Or is it probably more mature to accept that mistakes, and indeed failures and losses, are part and parcel to any competitive environment, even for those not accustomed to it?

[marcush.]

this thread is outright hillarious ..thanks so much for Spilling the beans here

I especially like the half monocoque mounted to the testrig at DAI part as a means of professional test proceedure.
In my daily work I always have to fight powers in Charge who try to test all at once in real world all variables in place mode.. what a waste of time and recources.

sorry chaps with that approach you will only feed the fingerpointers who are quick to look everywhere but in their own yard for reasons why things do not work as imagined.

Sure Mercedes has come up with THE PU to have ..but look no MERC powered car apart from the works Outfit challenges for wins ... this might give you the answer whats going on here .This is not strictly a hardware war on the power unit side .
It is most likely the well planned Integration of Daimlers powerunit into the whole package not only Hardware but also Software side and application .This was started a LONG time ago and ironed out good enough to supply the customers with decent powerunits which were workable from the word go. One might think the Units received by the customers are second choice ,yes but realistically they all and no real Chance to arrive at a Optimum Integration -which is essentially true for all Renault Teams as well and Sauber and Marrussia as well ...

Neither Ferrari nor Renault had the recources moneywise to compete on that level maybe they even do not have the people necessary to come up with a hybrid System remotely on the level of what Mercedes can develop inhouse .It´s really pulling out all stops for Daimler when it Comes to development of the hybrid System methinks and the result is more than obvious.

As for REDBulls Approach -we all know racers are secretive to extremes and it´s more than likely that RedBullTechnologies was not willing to share their ideas with Renault about how they were planning to use the power Units -and Lotus -well they were in a state of disintegration already so not much of their recources went into the PU usage strategies in 2013
well Caterham let´s not even think about it .. and williams were on their way out .. I´m pretty sure Neweys Team had a big part of responsibility in why Renault came up with aa powerunit unfit for the demands of the Teams ....

[FoxHound]

As for REDBulls Approach -we all know racers are secretive to extremes and it´s more than likely that RedBullTechnologies was not willing to share their ideas with Renault about how they were planning to use the power Units

The ball is out the park....+1.

[FoxHound]

Or is it probably more mature to accept that mistakes, and indeed failures and losses, are part and parcel to any competitive environment, even for those not accustomed to it?

Absolutely.

If the failure is abject and total, we can start to use adjectives like incompetence. If Renault are indeed guilty of this incompetence, I envy the version of it.

[Cam]

The point has 747'd over a few heads here. This isn't a moral debate about whether Red Bull should take legal action - it's whether they can. You can all debate if supplier X or Supplier Y is 'incompetent' all day. That doesn't change what grounds 'could' be laid down in a contract. You can specify "person x must wear red shirts" if they sign off and wear a blue one, bang!

Renault has admitted its faults to a degree. No one can debate that. If they agreed performance terms with Red Bull that they have now breached, Bang!

Doing it though and/or getting a positive result, is a separate matter.

[bhall]

As I said earlier, I think suppliers will flee the sport if Red Bull makes any attempt to hold Renault liable for, well, anything, really, because the majority of all suppliers work with losing teams and would therefore be exposed to potentially huge liability claims.

[myurr]

The point has 747'd over a few heads here. This isn't a moral debate about whether Red Bull should take legal action - it's whether they can. You can all debate if supplier X or Supplier Y is 'incompetent' all day. That doesn't change what grounds 'could' be laid down in a contract. You can specify "person x must wear red shirts" if they sign off and wear a blue one, bang!

Renault has admitted its faults to a degree. No one can debate that. If they agreed performance terms with Red Bull that they have now breached, Bang!

Doing it though and/or getting a positive result, is a separate matter.

Marko's assertion wasn't that Renault had breached contract, but that Red Bull had to spend resources helping Renault get their engines to work and that they should be billing Renault for that. He *probably* isn't actually serious and thinks this is a cunning way to highlight yet again how great Red Bull are and that they've been responsible for Renault's progress. In reality all it does is highlight how piss poor the working relationship is and how Red Bull continue to treat a works engine supply as they would any other supplier, utterly failing to take advantage of the ability to work closely in partnership with Renault.

It is that lack of vision when it comes to working together which is why Red Bull won't catch Mercedes this year and are unlikely to next year either unless they change their entire way of working. Mercedes are thrashing the opposition because they have a fully integrated engine and chassis team working hand in hand to produce the perfect engine for the chassis, including the internal packaging and aerodynamics. Red Bull seem to expect Renault to produce the best engine in isolation and have it magically suit the car and just all come together. Then when it doesn't they run a PR campaign against their partners telling anyone that will listen that they have the best chassis and it's all the engine's fault, threaten to bill Renault for their time helping them make everything work nicely together, say they'd love it if they could ditch Renault and work with another manufacturer and hint that unless they go back to dominating the sport then they may just pack it all in. Even Ferrari have never managed to be that egotistical.

[Cam]

Lack of vision when it comes to working together? Really? History shows a remarkable working relationship. I think they won 4 consecutive WDC and WCC together? Not bad for a "piss poor" relationship.

Not sure why you're missing it, but Renault have admitted liability. They admitted they have stuffed up. The original speculation was Marko threatening to sue. Some people called Marko a moron for that. Ultimately none of us know what contractual terms are in play. That performance could be? Well, I'll err on that side.

If a partner does not perform, you warn them, then let them go. Just like a certain alternator supplier. Maybe if a few other teams were as harsh, they'd have a few more trophies too?

[Cam]

As I said earlier, I think suppliers will flee the sport if Red Bull makes any attempt to hold Renault liable for, well, anything, really, because the majority of all suppliers work with losing teams and would therefore be exposed to potentially huge liability claims.

I think there's a difference between supplying parts to a loosing team and supplying under-performing parts in conflict with agreed terms.

This is all probably nothing, but it does highlight the possibilities that both teams and suppliers face.

[djos]

Wow, some real tin foil hatters here!

This just Helmet being Helmet and applying pressure to Renault in public!

Clearly Renault aren't incompetent, they have built race winning engines in the 1st turbo era, 3.5ltr era, 3.0ltr era and the V8 era - they will win races in the PU era too!

[marcush.]

I´d be more than surprised if Renault signed a contract with REDBull not specifically demanding a high Level of keeping details of their relationship out of the public Domain.
Renault sure cannot afford to have REDBull disposing off their trashbins over their heads .It´s not only bad style ,it´s something unheard of usually and tells a Story or two about Dr.Markos professionalism -mind you the guy is a lawyer...
I see at least one Forum friend nodding when I mention the Little fact Renault are dealing with Austrians here (sorry Paul .. but I just have to mention this)..it seems as many People over there are really really nice and warm so you feel very welcome spending your Holidays there for example but when it Comes to dealing with them they seem to show a very ,hm, special and unique,bizarre side ...my 2 Cents there ..preoccupied ,sure and maybe unjustified as well but Marko has done a good Job here in supporting my biased stance.

It is arrogance to the extreme and i wonder if RedBulls PR dept has no issues with their leaders acting like that in public.
Surely Volkwagen will quickly revisit any plans and proposals aimed at a potential cooperation .You would not want to be
mentioned in the same context as a german OEM so Helmet essentially has not only burnt the Reanult Connection he has cut off any possible alternative at the same time ...This is either very dumb or a clever move to drive Didi in a let´s do it alone and Show them how it´s done Position ..