2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[gruntguru]

That is a most resonable estimation; With 46 MJ/kg, 27.8 g/s flow and 35% efficiency you get 450 kW or 600 Hp.

MGU-K is limited to 120 kW or160 Hp, wherever the electricity is coming from, the ES or the MGU-H.

Total 760 Hp means a total efficiency of 44%

That is not a valid application of the word "efficiency and I doubt that Mercedes would quote a number that includes the total power to the MGUK.

The "more than 40%" quoted by Mercedes would include power from the crankshaft and (probably?) power being simultaneously generated by the MGUH under steady state conditions.

[xpensive]

Oh but I think it's xactly what Mercedes means, there's simply no way that the ICE alone would be 40+% efficient.

[wuzak]

The total power with full ERS usage (160hp) would not be a valid measure of the Power Unit's efficiency, as some of the power comes from an external energy source (ie the Energy Store).

As I said before, the efficiency mentioned by Mercedes, at 40%, represents the compounded power - that is the power that the engine produces from the fuel without in teh input of the ES. That will include some power from the MGUK, but only what can be generated by the MGUH and not the full 160hp.

[gruntguru]

Oh but I think it's xactly what Mercedes means, there's simply no way that the ICE alone would be 40+% efficient.

I agree that 40+% is probably total compounded power (ICE + MGUH), but 40+% from the ICE alone is only just around the corner. Toyota are seeing 42% in the lab from the next generation Prius engine - without compounding.

[OO7]

I think we'll get a better idea of the power outputs from Monza, assuming it is dry. Top speeds were 342kph and 340kph in 2012 and 2013 respectively, the V8's were reputed to produce about 780bhp. KERS back then was usually used for low speed acceleration.

[xpensive]

The total power with full ERS usage (160hp) would not be a valid measure of the Power Unit's efficiency, as some of the power comes from an external energy source (ie the Energy Store).

As I said before, the efficiency mentioned by Mercedes, at 40%, represents the compounded power - that is the power that the engine produces from the fuel without in teh input of the ES. That will include some power from the MGUK, but only what can be generated by the MGUH and not the full 160hp.

I beg to differ, if you backtrack the energy from the ES far enough, it is all stemming from the 27.8g/sec fuel flow.

[mrluke]

I think we'll get a better idea of the power outputs from Monza, assuming it is dry. Top speeds were 342kph and 340kph in 2012 and 2013 respectively, the V8's were reputed to produce about 780bhp. KERS back then was usually used for low speed acceleration.

Unlikely, it doesnt matter what evidence you put out there some people refuse to believe that the teams are getting more power from a v6 than they did from the v8.

It doesnt matter if all the teams and drivers say the cars are more powerful and that we have plenty of evidence of higher top speeds, people just dont want to accept it.

[xpensive]

Top speed comparisons are actually not telling that much, as the 2014 aerodynamics a way different from 2013.

The difference drivers are talking about is the superior mid-range, as power is constant from 10.5 kRpm and up.

[beelsebob]

So basically, you guys are arguing this based on the fact that you don't believe that Merc can have hit 40% ICE efficiency. I think that it's entirely viable that they could have. There are ICEs in the world (okay, not 600 horse power ones, but still) that have 52% efficiency. There are road car engines that manage over 40% efficiency. Mercedes notably have been on the leading edge of engine efficiency for a while now. Frankly, if they claim that they managed 40% efficiency, then I believe them.

[xpensive]

Basically,
40+% is possible for the Diesel process, where the fuel burns under constant pressure, but not a gasoline ICE at 12 kRpm.

[ringo]

It is unlikely that 40% TE is achieved with the ICE only.

It is most likely that 40% TE is in turbo-compound mode. Let's say that the ICE has 600hp, and can get 70hp back from the MGUH, that would give 670hp. You would then have an additional 90hp if you also used the ES to drive the MGUK - a total of 760hp.

That is a most resonable estimation; With 46 MJ/kg, 27.8 g/s flow and 35% efficiency you get 450 kW or 600 Hp.

MGU-K is limited to 120 kW or160 Hp, wherever the electricity is coming from, the ES or the MGU-H.

Total 760 Hp means a total efficiency of 44%

Mercedes superiority comes from a fully develop MGU-H, which gives them the whole enchillada almost everywhere.

xxcatly!!

[ringo]

Oh but I think it's xactly what Mercedes means, there's simply no way that the ICE alone would be 40+% efficient.

I agree that 40+% is probably total compounded power (ICE + MGUH), but 40+% from the ICE alone is only just around the corner. Toyota are seeing 42% in the lab from the next generation Prius engine - without compounding.

That is not from an Otto cycle. That's from Atkinson cycle.

No otto cycle is going to produce more than theoretically possible. The compounded power is also misleading.

As what the engine makers will do is add the kW produced by the electric motor to the kW produced by the engine then divide it by the kg of fuel used to produce that. zero kg is used to produce the electric power so there will be a big boost to the efficiency figure.
What interesting is that the engine will only see this peak efficiency if it electric energy is being expelled by the motors.
Who uses ERS more will inadvertently have a more powerful and efficient engine. hence the Merc advantage.

Huge ass turbine and maybe very good storage system.

[gruntguru]

The total power with full ERS usage (160hp) would not be a valid measure of the Power Unit's efficiency, as some of the power comes from an external energy source (ie the Energy Store).

As I said before, the efficiency mentioned by Mercedes, at 40%, represents the compounded power - that is the power that the engine produces from the fuel without in teh input of the ES. That will include some power from the MGUK, but only what can be generated by the MGUH and not the full 160hp.

I beg to differ, if you backtrack the energy from the ES far enough, it is all stemming from the 27.8g/sec fuel flow.

In that case you would be wrong. You can't run a motor at full power, store half the energy, measure the total power while retrieving the stored energy, then use the total output to calculate efficiency. It would be easy to design a system to exceed 100% efficiency using those rules.

Total efficiency for the compound PU = steady state total power output (ICE plus MGUH) divided by fuel power input.

[gruntguru]

Basically, 40+% is possible for the Diesel process, where the fuel burns under constant pressure, but not a gasoline ICE at 12 kRpm.

The Otto cycle has a higher efficiency for a given compression ratio so the superior efficiency typical of Diesels is due to higher compression ratio and higher air fuel ratio.

It is nonsense to claim 40+% is impossible. Toyota claim 37% for their current Prius and 40+% for the next generation - neither having compounding. Besides, Mercedes have publicly stated their efficiency is above 40%. They would not risk their reputation with a dodgy claim - it would definitely by disproved eventually.

Bengt Johansson has achieved 48.5% in the lab using Partially Premixed Combustion (in a Diesel engine but using gasolene and a cycle closer to Otto than Diesel) http://www.sae.org/events/pfl/presentat ... ansson.pdf

BTW peak efficiency would be close to 10.5k rpm not 12k.

[wuzak]

The compounded power is also misleading.

As what the engine makers will do is add the kW produced by the electric motor to the kW produced by the engine then divide it by the kg of fuel used to produce that. zero kg is used to produce the electric power so there will be a big boost to the efficiency figure.

The compounded power is power generated by the MGUH from the exhaust and used directly by the MGUK. Thus the efficiency is the (ICE power + MGUH power) / fuel power.

While, theoretically, no extra fuel is used to produce power in the MGUH, it may be that power is sacrificed in the ICE to get more MGUH power, for a higher total power and efficiency. In that sense, extra fuel is used to generate gases to run the MGUH.

What interesting is that the engine will only see this peak efficiency if it electric energy is being expelled by the motors.

It as always going to be the case that the highest total efficiency was going to be when the ERS is in use.

Who uses ERS more will inadvertently have a more powerful and efficient engine. hence the Merc advantage.

Nothing inadvertent about it.

Huge ass turbine and maybe very good storage system.

Not so much the turbine and storage, but probably a more refined and efficient control system strategy.