Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2014

[Cam]

this is a very complex and expensive power unit we are talking about, FIA should have let the manufacturer continue to develop the engine throughout this season before the freeze it.

Coincidentally, Ferrari has joined in to express their unhappiness about this year regulations. I am not sure if behind the scene RBR and Ferrari are planning something

Why do you say Ferrari and Red Bull are up to something?

[FoxHound]

How competitive can an aero guy be when the engine makes the difference? We can agree to disagree. I'd prefer to still have loud v8's and see aero tweaks than what we have now. I guess so does Newey.

Lets mirror that to reflect engine manufacturers.
How competitive can an engine guy be when aero makes the difference?
Because that is the situation Mercedes and Ferrari found themselves in whilst Red bull made whoopee. And all kudos to Red Bull.

I want loud engines too, but this is sidetracking as a loud or quiet engine is neither here nor there in terms of performance differentiation against aero. None at all actually.

The engine guy works with the aero guy. Thats what red bull did. The others didn't. They still had the same opportunities.

Cam,

Did I say that the engine guys do not work in conjunction with the Aero boffins? Nope.
If we see the Exhaust blown diffuser, who's idea was it? Red Bull's.
Did the engine itself change? No.

Mercedes nor Ferrari could get their systems to work as well as Renault simply because, within the frozen regs, their engines were not as conducive to creating the effect as Renault.
Beelsebob alluded to that in one of his posts earlier.
So what could they do to even it out in this formula, cam?

I'm on a nice downvote run on this thread as it is....so keep em coming.

EDIT: I've bolded the bit you need to re-read which you obviously have not.

[bhall]

this is a very complex and expensive power unit we are talking about, FIA should have let the manufacturer continue to develop the engine throughout this season before the freeze it.

Coincidentally, Ferrari has joined in to express their unhappiness about this year regulations. I am not sure if behind the scene RBR and Ferrari are planning something

For me, the weirdest part of the in-season homologation is that it doesn't seem to do a whole lot to save money as intended, because the manufacturers are currently at flank speed working on next year's PUs anyway. As such, I don't see much of a reason to disallow in-season updates based upon work that's already being done.

Perhaps the FIA is under the false impression that physically building a PU is somehow more expensive than its development.

[...]

Edit. Kudos to Merc, it's paying off. I have no issues when a team does this, only when they show up to make the numbers on the grid with no effort to try and win.

From RB2 to RB4, Red Bull didn't do much of anything on track. I think those cars, along with their identical twins at Toro Rosso, served to refine the processes Red Bull Technology employed to dominate the sport after the 2009 rule change.

Frankly, I think that may very well be the only way to win these days. A team that competes year in and year out doesn't stand much of a chance if it's up against a team that spent years and countless millions to prepare for a specific rule set. To wit...

[Adrian Newey said] We put a lot into the development of RB9 through June, July and September and inevitably that meant compromises. We only have limited recourses and while we were developing RB9 it meant that work wasn't going into RB10. However, we felt we needed to do that to try to win the championship and then handle the pressure of timescales that resulted from that.

"I think the promoter and the regulator need to get together and say 'This is what formula one is going to be', and then the teams have the choice of whether they enter the championship or not," [Christian Horner] said.

Maybe Horner's right. Plus, careful timing with regard to the publication of such rules could potentially limit the opportunities for a team to get a "head start" over its rivals.

[basti313]

How competitive can an aero guy be when the engine makes the difference? We can agree to disagree. I'd prefer to still have loud v8's and see aero tweaks than what we have now. I guess so does Newey.

Lets mirror that to reflect engine manufacturers.
How competitive can an engine guy be when aero makes the difference?
Because that is the situation Mercedes and Ferrari found themselves in whilst Red bull made whoopee. And all kudos to Red Bull.

Nice competition....
I would summarize the actual situation like this: Merc, Ferrari and Renault have been working on the old V8s with a small group of people to enhance their drivability and reliability. Then Merc hired a bunch of people and build a better V6 than Renault who stayed with their small group. In one or two years Merc will have fired the people and will work like in the V8-time with a small group on drivability and reliability.

The engines change nothing on the competition...they just give us further unequal conditions which are poison for all competition.

If Formula 1 stays like it is with a Merc engine giving you one second and the Ferrari engine a half second on the track, Formula 1 will be ruined. With stable rules no Renault powered team can build a chassis that is 1 second faster than the rest and even Ferrari will not be able to build a chassis that is a half second faster than a Williams or a Force India. So competition between the engines will be gone completely.

[MOWOG]

"I think the promoter and the regulator need to get together and say 'This is what formula one is going to be'

We have been saying the same thing for some time now. The sport seems to be in some sort of self imposed limbo where it can't decide if it is a media marketing machine or a racing series. While both are important, it has to focus on one or the other.

One thing that does strike me as odd is that, according to what I have read, the TEAMS were the prime movers behind the new rules package. But now that they got what they started, those who put together the least successful response to the new scheme are complaining the loudest. Does anyone thing Ferrari would be crying big crocodile tears and threatening to quit if IT was the team that had taken every pole, won almost every race and led the Constructors Championship by a huge amount? I think not.

It may be just me, but if there was an award for poor sportsmanship, Ferrari would be the leading candidate,

[bhall]

[...]

It may be just me, but if there was an award for poor sportsmanship, Ferrari would be the leading candidate,

At the risk of straying completely off-topic, Ferrari is the only team that's been against these rules from Day One. In fact, it was a Ferrari veto that prevented the introduction of 4-cylinder engines.

Just some food for thought.

Generally speaking, and a bit more on-topic, every team games the system the best they can. Red Bull Racing did it through the purchase of a separate team that allowed Red Bull Technology to collect twice as much data as their rivals at a time when a sea change in the regulations put a premium on data and new testing restrictions severely limited opportunities to collect it. They were also able to shop around for an engine that best fit their needs within homologation rules that ensured performance continuity on all fronts.

All of it was perfectly legitimate, because it was all within the rules. But, that doesn't mean the rules that allowed it were any good.

Now Mercedes is reaping a similar advantage, having spent four years and untold millions on the design and development of the class-leading PU within a competitive environment that guarantees complete and unfettered supremacy to whoever gets it right first. Again, it's perfectly legitimate, and they deserve all the credit in the world for their success. But, that still doesn't mean the rules are any good.

(And all of this follows an extended period in which unrestricted testing conferred an advantage to any teams that happened to have a test track in their back yard.)

It is what it is. As the saying goes, don't hate the player, hate the game.

[MOWOG]

Since we ARE far, far off topic, let me say that I have always understood that Ferrari has a virtual veto over most anything to do with the sport. So while I am not personally familiar with the process, if they were unalterably opposed to the new rules package, I doubt it would have come into being. And I thought it was Bernie who insisted on the V-6 engines, not Ferrari.

Whatever.....

We probably should let this thread drift back on course. Apologies to any and all who have been offended by this detour.

[Cam]

At the risk of really off topic (apologies)

"(LDM - 2011) I [will] do Formula 1 as long as Formula 1 represents for us the most important research centre," he was quoted as saying by Reuters. "The decision [to go for the] V6 is important because turbo-six is good for the future, not only for Ferrari but also for Mercedes and others."
F1's commercial rights holder Bernie Ecclestone is now a lone voice of opposition to the new engine rules, which were agreed last month in a compromise deal by the teams and FIA. Ecclestone has argued that the noise from the turbocharged engines will not be adequate for the F1 spectacle, and will cause disappointment among fans and promoters. The new rules will come into effect in 2014.

Seems MrE was against it from the start and others tunes have changed.

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/04072011 ... od-f1.html

[Sasha]

It was between a I4 Turbo(VW wanted) and a V6Turbo(Ferrari,Honda wanted) and Ferrari wanted a high rev limit(noise).
Ferrari got the 15,000rpm redline but F1 engine group knew from day one it would not rev to 15,000rpm because of the fuel rules.
All Ferrari wants is what was promised to them....15,000rpm redline(better sounding engine)!

[mertol]

The reaction is again way too late - the damage is already huge and in my opinion irreversible. Did noone see what was going to happen when the rules were first suggested?

[sectionate]

Don't be silly, that would suggest that the FIA knew what they were doing

[MOWOG]

Did noone see what was going to happen when the rules were first suggested?

No, proving once again (as if any more proof were needed) that there is no detectable correlation between money and brains.

Don't be silly, that would suggest that the FIA knew what they were doing.

Exactly.

[bhall]

[...]

Seems MrE was against it from the start and others tunes have changed.

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/04072011 ... od-f1.html

I've taken my reply here to avoid further collateral damage to this thread.

[prince]

Budgets
What you get in Junior Team


What you get in Senior Team

[FW17]

Red Bull will decide after its home Austrian Grand Prix this weekend if it will continue with Renault engines into the future.

That is the claim of team owner and supremo Dietrich Mateschitz.

Mateschitz confirmed on Friday: “There will be this final report. And then we will decide if there is still potential development in the existing engine, or whether we need to consider a new development in order to reach Mercedes’ standard.”

Previously, however, Red Bull officials have played down the possibility of a Renault split, as Formula 1′s only other engine suppliers are arch rivals Mercedes and Ferrari.

But there have been reports linking Red Bull with Volkswagen, or a potential move to build a bespoke ‘Red Bull’ turbo engine — perhaps in the outfit’s forthcoming Newey-led ‘Advanced Technology Centre’.

When told there are no real alternatives to Renault, Mateschitz insisted: “There are always alternatives, of course. But I don’t see Red Bull using a customer Mercedes engine. Because Mercedes wants to be world champion not just this year but also in the next few years.

-GP247

Guess he is planning for 2016 or later as next year is too soon. Or is DM powerful enough to get rid of some of the v6 regulations which could see less restrictions on the engine configuration and see Porsche le mans engines legal in f1.