Imminent F1 shakeup?

[AnthonyG]

I wonder who Jonathan Noble is trying to save, F1, or his site...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114486

[xpensive]

I think the problem is these small silent engines running economy races the public don't understand, when the general perception is that a racing car should be loud with big engines, consider what cars they are testing in "Top Gear" and you get the idea.

[AnthonyG]

One can only guess from his/her own point of view, but if you want to know what's really going on, you have to do (market) research. And this won't be easy or cheap, but then we won't read all this nonsense each month and hear everyone best guesteminate idea as to why f1 is declining in popularity.
The newest scapegoat is social media, I'm looking forward to hear what the next one will be.

I won't spit theories arround here, but imo we should look at it from a broader perspective, also looking at f1's business model (Probably more open; less money for Bernie on the short term) next to various other angles.

[CHT]

I think the problem is these small silent engines running economy races the public don't understand, when the general perception is that a racing car should be loud with big engines, consider what cars they are testing in "Top Gear" and you get the idea.

I am not expecting anyone to hang a poster of Toyota Prius in their bedroom because its fuel efficient and green either

[autogyro]

It is essential to understand that electric traction WILL replace internal combustion in the future.
Hybrid systems including F1 are simply stop gaps along the way.
All the teams and engineers understand this even Ferrari.
The only reason Ferrari is again bitching is because they are not winning nothing else.
A return to V10 or even V12 ordinary aspirated IC engines would be similar to a return to steam traction.

[FW17]

I think where the FIA got it wrong was when they went same power with 30% less fuel rather than 40% more power with same fuel.
- Guess that would have appealed more to the avg f1 fans

WTCC running the nordschleife, hope it is the first step in the return of f1 to its centerpiece.

[GitanesBlondes]

What I've always found mesmerizing is how some manufacturers sing about economy engines and the like, yet all of their prestige models are running V8, V10, and V12 engines in those models. Mercedes is a great example of this. The Silver Arrow fans ignore how AMG is busy building twin-turbo V12's and V8's even in spite of this silly F1 formula. Why are they doing this? Because they know bigger is better and that is what sells. What filthy rich person is going to buy a car with a small engine when Jack down the street is packing some large....in his garage in the shape of a Ferrari F12? Ferrari is even looking to up the power in the F12 from 660 to 700HP.

F1 has become a highly expensive engineering exercise where any team not named Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari, or Mercedes is going to be bankrupted by these pricey, and useless engines. If you really wanted to drive costs down, don't make it so the engine formula is essentially formulated in such a manner, the only outfits capable of pulling together the scratch for R&D are outfits like Ferrari/Merc/Renault and soon to be Honda. As long as the formula costs are kept insanely high because of things like this, you'll never see a guy like Brian Hart setting up shop again in F1 because for whatever knowledge someone has, there is zero way they could ever find the funding.

When everyone in F1, along with this forum is able to accept that F1 has no road relevance and never did, and exists as entertainment that requires engineering, the sport might be better off. F1's trickle-down effect to road cars from 1950 to 2013 was minimal. If these guys want to go pursue ridiculously expensive, and environmentally damaging engines, I've no doubt they could find jobs at any of the major automotive manufacturers. Pretending to be environmentally conscious all while designing engines that have no impact on the larger world in any form other than as an intellectual masturbation session, is the height of stupidity.

F1 was always about building outrageous, powerful engines. The entire history of the sport reflected this up until 2006 when Max the Masochist (sorry your "right" to be forgotten will never happen) decided he had more technical know-how than anyone who ever lived, and forced upon everyone his short-sighted ideas that continue on to this day.

Efficiency lol...if you want efficiency, go line up your Prius's and Tesla's at the local road course and do it there.

[Agenda_Is_Incorrect]

It is essential to understand that electric traction WILL replace internal combustion in the future.
Hybrid systems including F1 are simply stop gaps along the way.
All the teams and engineers understand this even Ferrari.
The only reason Ferrari is again bitching is because they are not winning nothing else.
A return to V10 or even V12 ordinary aspirated IC engines would be similar to a return to steam traction.

Who cares. Who cares? That's the question. Get a grip, don't be the kind who thinks too much and forget the most essential things, so that at the end of the day all you say is righteous non-sense.

No one uses horses anymore, yet the sport still exists. Racing is supposed to be fast and fun, electrical appliances have zero appeal as such. The day motorsports switch to electric is the day no one will give a f*ck about it, except for people who need help to wear their pants the right way (yet they know everything about the world!).

F1 needs to stop the FIA purely money making scheme that destroys every sport it touches (like WRC) and start asking that question: WHO CARES? A return to V10s or V12s could be a big middle finger to cater F1 for people who DOESN'T CARE ABOUT IT (greenies, self righteous wankers, people concerned exclusively about saving fuel for commuting, people who don't even watch races). It would be a big step into making F1 back for the people who DO CARE.

Maybe audiences wouldn't be dropping as hard as they are now. Then again, some people just have to see the sh*t roll down to believe, some of them won't believe even so. It was obvious audience was going to drop as well as interest in the sport. Then, they complaint about lack of money from TV or sponsors...

Thing is, F1 doesn't need to be road relevant. It doesn't even need to be related to a normal car in any way, and they are not! Let's stop pretending it should be. Not even super sports cars use any of the basic characteristics of an F1 car, maybe carbon and central engine being the single exceptions.

F1 is for people into racing. If you don't like horses, don't watch sports with them. If you don't like big, powerful, inefficient engines, don't watch motorsports. It's as simple as that!

[GitanesBlondes]

Speaking of more silliness that still doesn't address the engine problems, Ferrari and Mercedes will be conducting a "sparks" test this weekend.

Titanium skid blocks to try and generate the excitement of the old days. Still ignores that was due to the no minimum ride height rule which is what F1 needs to get rid of. It was a stupid knee-jerk rule.

http://www.racer.com/f1/item/104563-spa ... a-practice

[Cam]

I'm worried artificial anything will hurt them. They may as well tape sparklers on the back. But at least they're trying. Audio Visual - the basics of any good show.

[GitanesBlondes]

Here's the problem.

When you had the cars generating sparks in the 1980s through the early 1990s, it was because of the ride height on whatever car being as low as they could get it without the floor resting completely on the ground. It's incredible how low the floor was to the ground back then, just mere millimeters away. But it boiled down to it being a byproduct of trying to push the car to the absolute limit in terms of setup. This is just artificial stupidity that has no point.

If they want a show, they should call WWE HQ in Stamford, CT and get Vincent Kennedy McMahon on the line.

If they want to be seen as a sporting endeavour, it's time to take the kiddie gloves off, and getting back to F1 cars being nothing more than overpowered go-karts.

The irony of this sparks test being done at Spielberg is that it was once home to a circuit that did not require anything but the track and powerful cars for the show. Now we have another Mickey-Mouse circuit that lost all of the appeal of the Osterreichring.

"At Zeltweg, down the long straight to the Bosch Kurve, the car was throwing out 1400 bhp and just kept on pushing – you felt like you were sitting on a rocket." -Gerhard Berger

That was the show back then, run 5 BAR of boost and hope your engine was designed well enough so the driver could put together one, maybe two laps together with a qualifying engine, and the Goodyear qualifiers on a track that would punish you if you got anything wrong, with speeds averaging 150+MPH. Now, it's a 9-turn snoozefest that holds none of the uniqueness of the old circuit, with guys conserving fuel and tires for most of the race with the pitwall monitoring every last move.

That's why I say F1 is an engineering exercise currently because it has nothing to even do with motor racing other than that it dresses up like it to get more money.

[flyboy2160]

As much as I decry the recent F1 change of direction from racing-for-racing's-sake toward PC, "relevant," and Green, you can't expect a dramatic change in the engines this soon after the large expenditures for the new designs. In the immediate future I'd like to see a few changes that could realistically be argued for: get rid of the fuel rate limitation, the engine number limit, and the homologation straightjacket.
Let the drivers play with the short-term extra horsepower as they see fit - for qualifying and for passing/defending. If they blow an engine because it's close to the limit, go get another one. Let those behind in the engine race catch up.

[Moxie]

Here's the problem.

When you had the cars generating sparks in the 1980s through the early 1990s, it was because of the ride height on whatever car being as low as they could get it without the floor resting completely on the ground. It's incredible how low the floor was to the ground back then, just mere millimeters away. But it boiled down to it being a byproduct of trying to push the car to the absolute limit in terms of setup. This is just artificial stupidity that has no point.

If they want a show, they should call WWE HQ in Stamford, CT and get Vincent Kennedy McMahon on the line.

If they want to be seen as a sporting endeavour, it's time to take the kiddie gloves off, and getting back to F1 cars being nothing more than overpowered go-karts.

The irony of this sparks test being done at Spielberg is that it was once home to a circuit that did not require anything but the track and powerful cars for the show. Now we have another Mickey-Mouse circuit that lost all of the appeal of the Osterreichring.

"At Zeltweg, down the long straight to the Bosch Kurve, the car was throwing out 1400 bhp and just kept on pushing – you felt like you were sitting on a rocket." -Gerhard Berger

That was the show back then, run 5 BAR of boost and hope your engine was designed well enough so the driver could put together one, maybe two laps together with a qualifying engine, and the Goodyear qualifiers on a track that would punish you if you got anything wrong, with speeds averaging 150+MPH. Now, it's a 9-turn snoozefest that holds none of the uniqueness of the old circuit, with guys conserving fuel and tires for most of the race with the pitwall monitoring every last move.

That's why I say F1 is an engineering exercise currently because it has nothing to even do with motor racing other than that it dresses up like it to get more money.

I agree, and I appreciate the style with a dash of humor. =D> Vince McMahon and Bernie Eccelstone; now there's a frightening tag team.

I will say though that I don't mind so much if F1 sets some broad standards intended to make engineers focus on concepts important to modern consumers. As fuel efficiency is important in today's world, limits on fuel consumption are ok with me.

However, I believe the engineers should be free to engineer an engine that gets the most out of the allotted fuel. Instead the formula strictly defines so many aspects of the drive system that there is little room for new and unique ideas. And when one team " does have successful performance design (Mercedes turbo placement) the other teams are barred from developing their own systems.

I want to see the engineers return to pushing the limits. If one team runs a six cylinders with individual turbos for each cylinder, and another team runs four cylinders with a turbo the size of a garden leaf blower...so be it. Engineering experiments like the Tyrrell p34 should be welcomed, not banned.

[langwadt]

Speaking of more silliness that still doesn't address the engine problems, Ferrari and Mercedes will be conducting a "sparks" test this weekend.

Titanium skid blocks to try and generate the excitement of the old days. Still ignores that was due to the no minimum ride height rule which is what F1 needs to get rid of. It was a stupid knee-jerk rule.

http://www.racer.com/f1/item/104563-spa ... a-practice

afaik there is no minium ride height rules, you can run as low as you like as long as you don't wear the bottom plank
more than allowed

[autogyro]

Its a shame because I love F1 as it used to be and my involvement in it.
You guys are beginning to see, there is no way out.
All the ideas on this thread are simply papering over cracks as bigger ones appear.
The world public is no longer going to accept big powerful IC engines and those who pay to promote their goods wont support such an ideal for much longer.