Infiniti Red Bull Racing 2014

[30yrF1Fan]

While I can understand RB frustration, if you look at the overall speed traps in qualifying the Renault PU has made progress. The sister TR has not been that far off and you can't tell me it is because they have no downforce, Kvyat had a great qualifying run in Austria and was 4km slower in the traps to Hamilton.
RB have always been slower in the speed traps, it is a function of their design philosophy, however what the lack in top line speed this year (which is a lot) is not being made up with the superior driveability of the Renault PU of the past generations. Those engines were the class of the field from the V10s to the first and last V8s - just look at their winning records and pole positions...

Frankly I find their constant public criticisms really unprofessional. I have lost a lot of respect for the team this year over this. Do any of the Ferrari powered teams (including Ferrari themselves) constantly criticize the Ferrari PU, which is probably even weaker than the Renault PU? I mean RB just can't stop bashing their PU partner that helped them win 8 titles in 4 years and RB are still 2nd in the championship at this point. They really should point the finger more at Vettel to up his game (Yes I know he has had just about all the DNF's, but so has Hamilton), he is looking more like a #2 driver to Ricciardo every race. This kid is just kicking his butt...

At this point I would really like to see RB decide in the next few weeks either to pull the plug on the relationship and get another PU or show some respect to what was an incredibly successful partnership. If they think they can do better somewhere else besides Mercedes then go for it, put your money where your mouth is. They will have no one else to blame but themselves if it fails, or be called "Heros" if they succeed. Spare us the drama and make your decision by Silverstone -PLEASE.

If I was Renault I would push like hell on the 2015 PU (which I am sure they are doing) and end the partnership with RB in 2014 on principle and show RB just what they lost in 2015. After all isn't RB going to sue Renault for a damaged reputation and poor results anyway... just unbelievable. But I guess if Renault did that it would would leave them with just Lotus...

As far as Renault is concerned, yes they need to change, Rob White needs to get fired or resign over this, as Deputy Managing Technical Director he needs to accept the blame for 2014 and do a "Domenicali move" and fall on the sword. Not sure why he is still there at this point - perhaps it is (or was) to help his fellow countrymen back at Brixworth - OK that was a bit harsh

[Cold Fussion]

While I can understand RB frustration, if you look at the overall speed traps in qualifying the Renault PU has made progress. The sister TR has not been that far off and you can't tell me it is because they have no downforce, Kvyat had a great qualifying run in Austria and was 4km slower in the traps to Hamilton.

It's not just the top speed, it's the acceleration you have to look at. Red Bull will have the GPS traces of all the cars, and with that data they will be able to fairly accurately infer the power of the Mercedes PU compared to the Renault PU. The Williams had a 10 km/h top speed advantage compared to Torro Rosso, and run considerably more downforce. The Renault PU is still quite a while behind the rest.

[Wayne DR]

(Yes I know he has had just about all the DNF's, but so has Hamilton)

I think Vettel has got Webber's car this year! RB only ever seem to be able to build one good car for each race weekend, and whereas last year he was in that car, and Webber was not, this year the tables have turned...

If I was Renault I would push like hell on the 2015 PU (which I am sure they are doing) and end the partnership with RB in 2014 on principle and show RB just what they lost in 2015.

I agree 100%!! You never saw this kind of reaction from the other teams when RB were winning championships.

With all the development restrictions due to Homologation, I am not sure how much more they can get out of the 2014 PU in any case.

Maybe Newey can design the 2015 RB to be pedal powered...

[30yrF1Fan]

(Yes I know he has had just about all the DNF's, but so has Hamilton)

I think Vettel has got Webber's car this year! RB only ever seem to be able to build one good car for each race weekend, and whereas last year he was in that car, and Webber was not, this year the tables have turned...

If I was Renault I would push like hell on the 2015 PU (which I am sure they are doing) and end the partnership with RB in 2014 on principle and show RB just what they lost in 2015.

I agree 100%!! You never saw this kind of reaction from the other teams when RB were winning championships.

With all the development restrictions due to Homologation, I am not sure how much more they can get out of the 2014 PU in any case.

Maybe Newey can design the 2015 RB to be pedal powered...

Agree I think 2014 is lost due to Homologation. They have one more shot to develop something good for 2015 after that the engine freeze is for several years, so that is where they need to focus at this point. I am sure they are already aware of the engineering short comings with the 2014 PU and will produce a much improved PU for 2015 and beyond. Honda will no doubt benefit from having studied the design approaches from 2014. The split turbo of the Mercedes was an obvious and masterful design (they were very clever in concealing it when official pictures were published of their PU showing a very similar design to Renault). In my opinion, Renault was just too conservative and probably did not have nearly the budget to get it done right. They have since asked for more money and more engineers.

[basti313]

Renaults problem isn't the ICE but the ERS and Control Systems.

That is something Mercedes is great at and Honda is very good but they also hired the PURE engine people(team leader was the one who came up with the 2014 engine rules) and Magneti Marelli for their ERS.

This is wrong. Canada clearly showed, that the Merc ICE alone with the MGU-H is competitive. If they would use bigger rear brakes and modulate the mappings they could win against the Renaults completely without MGU-K, because their ICE is so much stronger. And Renault stated that they are at 100% with their MGU-K support...this is not too complicated as they have a lot of experience with the ERS.

[Cold Fussion]

Renaults problem isn't the ICE but the ERS and Control Systems.

That is something Mercedes is great at and Honda is very good but they also hired the PURE engine people(team leader was the one who came up with the 2014 engine rules) and Magneti Marelli for their ERS.

This is wrong. Canada clearly showed, that the Merc ICE alone with the MGU-H is competitive. If they would use bigger rear brakes and modulate the mappings they could win against the Renaults completely without MGU-K, because their ICE is so much stronger. And Renault stated that they are at 100% with their MGU-K support...this is not too complicated as they have a lot of experience with the ERS.

I don't think you understand the rules. If you have no mgu-k, you have no way to deploy the harvested energy from the mug-h.

[basti313]

Renaults problem isn't the ICE but the ERS and Control Systems.

That is something Mercedes is great at and Honda is very good but they also hired the PURE engine people(team leader was the one who came up with the 2014 engine rules) and Magneti Marelli for their ERS.

This is wrong. Canada clearly showed, that the Merc ICE alone with the MGU-H is competitive. If they would use bigger rear brakes and modulate the mappings they could win against the Renaults completely without MGU-K, because their ICE is so much stronger. And Renault stated that they are at 100% with their MGU-K support...this is not too complicated as they have a lot of experience with the ERS.

I don't think you understand the rules. If you have no mgu-k, you have no way to deploy the harvested energy from the mug-h.

Also wrong. If you use the wastegate you can control the harvesting with MGU-H and feed back the energy to MGU-H. Mercedes did this in Canada if you remember...
I anyway do not want to end up in a useless discussion about rules that you want to start to deflect the discussion. The point is still: Mercedes ICE is so strong, that they can race the Renaults without even using their MGU-K. so it is not the ERS which is superior, but only the ICE.

[Cold Fussion]

This is wrong. Canada clearly showed, that the Merc ICE alone with the MGU-H is competitive. If they would use bigger rear brakes and modulate the mappings they could win against the Renaults completely without MGU-K, because their ICE is so much stronger. And Renault stated that they are at 100% with their MGU-K support...this is not too complicated as they have a lot of experience with the ERS.

I don't think you understand the rules. If you have no mgu-k, you have no way to deploy the harvested energy from the mug-h.

Also wrong. If you use the wastegate you can control the harvesting with MGU-H and feed back the energy to MGU-H. Mercedes did this in Canada if you remember...

And what does this achieve? You can't drive the mgu-h as a motor and a generator at the same time..

[langwadt]

how would the engine freeze work if Renault took their engine and staff to say Redbull technology, fixed it and then and slapped a Nissan or Infinity badge on it?

I'm sure that this wouldn't be allowed. After all, Fiat could do the same, completely redesign the Ferrari engine & introduce Maserati or Alfa Romeo as an engine supplier. Ferrari would then use a "re-badged" Maserati / Alfa Romeo engine!

agreed if allowed the freeze would be pointless, but it just poses another question; if a new manufacturer wants to start supplying engines how much of the design, staff, ownership etc. would have to be different to not be bound by the freeze?

[Sasha]

He needs to read up on the PU in the engine tech section in the forum.

[Sasha]

Also they just shot down that story about them building their own engine at Autosport.

[basti313]

This is wrong. Canada clearly showed, that the Merc ICE alone with the MGU-H is competitive. If they would use bigger rear brakes and modulate the mappings they could win against the Renaults completely without MGU-K, because their ICE is so much stronger. And Renault stated that they are at 100% with their MGU-K support...this is not too complicated as they have a lot of experience with the ERS.
.

Also wrong. If you use the wastegate you can control the harvesting with MGU-H and feed back the energy to MGU-H. Mercedes did this in Canada if you remember...

And what does this achieve? You can't drive the mgu-h as a motor and a generator at the same time..

You use the MGU-H on full throttle to control the turbine speed and you use it when you are not on throttle to keep the turbine speed. I do not know what you do not get on this or what you do not what to get...
But again: This has nothing to do with this thread...the only thing that counts is the power that Merc can achieve without MGU-K, e.g. the pure power of the ICE. This is not far away of the power Renault can achieve with MGU-K.

[Juzh]

But again: This has nothing to do with this thread...the only thing that counts is the power that Merc can achieve without MGU-K, e.g. the pure power of the ICE. This is not far away of the power Renault can achieve with MGU-K.

In all honesty, rosberg was no match for ric down the straight once he came into striking distance. He also came from a long way back. So no, merc without the K is no match for the renault with K. Which is obvious, as renault is 60-80bhp down and not 120-160.

[Pierce89]

Also wrong. If you use the wastegate you can control the harvesting with MGU-H and feed back the energy to MGU-H. Mercedes did this in Canada if you remember...

And what does this achieve? You can't drive the mgu-h as a motor and a generator at the same time..

You use the MGU-H on full throttle to control the turbine speed and you use it when you are not on throttle to keep the turbine speed. I do not know what you do not get on this or what you do not what to get...
But again: This has nothing to do with this thread...the only thing that counts is the power that Merc can achieve without MGU-K, e.g. the pure power of the ICE. This is not far away of the power Renault can achieve with MGU-K.

The main use of the mgu-h is to bleed off any turbine power above what the compressor requires and feed that power directly to the mgu-k. Anti lag is a much less effecient use of the electricity but is neccesary because they use a very large turbine to bleed as much energy out of the exhaust as possible.

[Wayne DR]

The main use of the mgu-h is to bleed off any turbine power above what the compressor requires and feed that power directly to the mgu-k. Anti lag is a much less effecient use of the electricity but is neccesary because they use a very large turbine to bleed as much energy out of the exhaust as possible.

Could you not also use the MGU-H as an "electric driven blower", to increase boost and make more power through the ICE (i.e. run the MGU-H to maintain a set manifold pressure). The effectiveness of this is obviously restricted by the 100kg/h fuel flow limit, but it is still a use of the harvested energy.