Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

[SectorOne]

No it´s not, i´m merely taking all the data there is from both seasons.

Which doesn't make your comparison correct.

Yes it does. Up to this point it´s absolutely correct.

English is not my native language.

Not mine either. Frankly it´s not so much about the language but how it´s structured.

Anyway, sorry if my post was hard to read.

And i´m sorry i did not ask for clarification before i replied.

Ok
1) Australia. In 2013 the gap was 0.436s in qualifying. In 2014 - 0.364.
2) Malaysia. 2013 - the gap was 0.820s. 2014 - 0.619s.
3) China. 2013 - 0.377s. 2014 - 1.283s. The anomaly that ruined the trend a bit.
4) Bahrain. 2013 - 0.432s. 2014 - 0.279s.
5) Spain. 2013 - 0.254s. 2014 - 0.168s.
6) Monaco. 2013 - 0.091s. 2014 - 0.059s.
7) Canada. 2013 - 0.496s. 2014 - 0.079s.
Austria. Nothing to compare to.

Nice data!

I am not getting in to an argument on who is quicker. All I am talking about is the delta.

You are certainly getting into an argument on who is quicker, it´s basically why we are talking to each other right now.

The average qualifying gap between the two drivers this year is bigger then the average qualifying gap last year.
That´s a simple fact, but as we all have pointed out, the season is not finished so the number will change most certainly.

But right now at this moment, it´s a true statement, just like yours.

[the user]

No it´s not, i´m merely taking all the data there is from both seasons.

And that's why I don't agree with such a comparison. Because then it's like comparing apples and oranges. If you compare a season's worth of data - compare it with another full season. Otherwise - it's an incomplete comparison.

Anyway, I guess we have to agree to disagree on this one I'm just happy that Mercedes is finally on the top. I've been waiting for this for 4 years.

[SectorOne]

No it´s not, i´m merely taking all the data there is from both seasons.

And that's why I don't agree with such a comparison. Because then it's like comparing apples and oranges. If you compare a season's worth of data - compare it with another full season. Otherwise - it's an incomplete comparison.

But that´s the thing, both drivers do the same amount of races, they both have equal chances at each and every race.

If two seasons have a different amount of races (as we see sometimes) you can still use the average qualifying gap to get an idea how the difference in speed between two drivers because they both participated in all of the races.

And then on top of that, when there´s different venues in the different seasons you can still use the average qualifying gap because it does not care about what circuits you went to.

Let´s have an example, let´s say 50% of the races in 2014 is new circuits.
For you, with your way of counting, you would have to ignore 50% of all the races because you have nothing to compare against because they weren´t there last year.

So you see the problem? Even if you wanted you will never be able to use 100% of the available data calculating your way.
Hockenheim, Sochi and Austria you cannot include in your calculations.

With the way F1Fanatic does it, taking an average over the races done gives you 100% of the available data.

You are already missing 12,5% of the available data to look at.
(not saying your way is wrong by any means, just saying you´ll never have 100% of the data, regardless of how many races they do)

[PlatinumZealot]

Rosberg is just Lucky his teamate got two DNF's and two brainfades in Q3 Canada and Austria. In straight fight Rosberg has never beaten his teammate so I will wait until that Happens before I even consider Rosberg one of the big Three.

[the user]

But that´s the thing, both drivers do the same amount of races, they both have equal chances at each and every race.

If two seasons have a different amount of races (as we see sometimes) you can still use the average qualifying gap to get an idea how the difference in speed between two drivers because they both participated in all of the races.

Yeah, but the difference is one-two races, not twelve. All I'm saying is so far, this season has not enough data points to make a full season-to-season comparison. Comparing race-by-race is just more accurate because you eliminate a variable - the track itself. E.g. A difference of 0.3s in Monaco is not the same as a gap of 0.3s in Spa.

And then on top of that, when there´s different venues in the different seasons you can still use the average qualifying gap because it does not care about what circuits you went to.

For predicting, I would use the average gap that has been so far this year. And the gap that was last season in the same races. And the gap that was averaged over the whole of last season. I would not base my prediction on only one data point. But once again, predicting the gap was not something we started discussing about. We were debating whether the gap in qualifyings has reduced or not.

Let´s have an example, let´s say 50% of the races in 2014 is new circuits.
For you, with your way of counting, you would have to ignore 50% of all the races because you have nothing to compare against because they weren´t there last year.

So you see the problem? Even if you wanted you will never be able to use 100% of the available data calculating your way.
Hockenheim, Sochi and Austria you cannot include in your calculations.

Yes, there is more than way predicting the delta between them.
With the way F1Fanatic does it, taking an average over the races done gives you 100% of the available data.

You are already missing 12,5% of the available data to look at.
(not saying your way is wrong by any means, just saying you´ll never have 100% of the data, regardless of how many races they do)

But we weren't discussing about predicting the gap. I was responding to your claim that the gap in qualifyings has increased compared to last year. As I said, lets agree to disagree.

Anyway, the gap in Austria was 0.118s in favor of Nico (taken from Q2 because in Q3 both didn't make a really representative lap) - less than the average from last year. Lets wait and see if the gap in qualifying at Silverstone will be bigger or smaller than 0.452s. But most of all - I hope we get to enjoy a thrilling race. Because racing is much more fun than nitpicking about tenths of a second

Rosberg is just Lucky his teamate got two DNF's and two brainfades in Q3 Canada and Austria. In straight fight Rosberg has never beaten his teammate so I will wait until that Happens before I even consider Rosberg one of the big Three.

Yes, and Rosberg really cares whether you think that he's one of some 'big three' or not. So what - Rosberg is lucky that he himself doesn't have brainfades? I never thought that a technical forum is the place for fanboy posts.

[SectorOne]

Ok it´s obvious you haven´t understood a single thing i said.

[Phil]

And that's why I don't agree with such a comparison. Because then it's like comparing apples and oranges. If you compare a season's worth of data - compare it with another full season. Otherwise - it's an incomplete comparison

To be really honest, I don't think your comparison is more apples - apples in any way. Different season = different car = different track condition = different tyres. That in itself makes the comparison quite difficult. You are right though, that China qualifying does sway the picture a bit, which is why earlier I was among few who said that numbers without context are misleading. Nice numbers in any case.

Anyway, I think comparing drivers is difficult anyway. It's not as if they possess a single attribut or gene, skill, where an entire arguement can be formed to state that one driver is quicker than the other. There's a lot more to a driver. I usually prefer to look at it like an RPG game - where drivers have a set of different skills that either suits one car, track, condition better or worse.

Skills could be anything among:

- natural talent / raw speed
- racing ability (intelligence)
- mental strength / focus
- strategic ability (somewhat intelligence)
- etc

I don't think any driver has the maximum of each attribute/skill. Depending on the track, its characteristics, weather condition, even how the car is setup or how it drives, might make a given scenario more tailored to one drivers sets of skill etc. Which is also precisely why it's so hard to compare drivers of different eras with each other - or different drivers across different teams. Because there are too many variables that make it anything but a level-playing field. And even if you do have a level playing field, like when two team-mates battle it out using the same car, you might still end up with a car in one season that might be tailored more to the skill set of one driver than perhaps another seasons car that drives completely different.

Which is why a driver like Michael Schumacher who returned to the sport found it completely different to what he was used to.

[iotar__]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/06/25/2 ... ranscript/
- OK Lewis front brakes again over limit. Just have a think about the compromises.
- OK Lewis I know the position you’re in but if you can do a little bit of lift-and-coast to help these brakes that would help.
- OK Lewis just think about those front brakes again, they are going up.
- So front left brake over limit. Just have a think about that B-bal.
- Brakes now on the limit. Losing a little bit on braking two and three but that may be management.

Rosberg - Stop talking to me Tony, please.

This Canada DNF must have been a really freaky and unlucky occurrence.

[Phil]

Now that's quite some selective quoting there iotar__. If you bother to check the other radio calls, you can see that most of these calls are an on-going talk between finding the best balance between being at (on) the limit, while remaining to make progress on the track. After a brake failure in Canada where heat was an issue for many cars (brake-heavy circuit), it's only logical that the team would be extra cautious regarding brake temperatures.

I would also think that the brake temperatures were slightly exagerated due to following different cars. After all, for 2 stints out of 3, Lewis was in close approximation to another car, and being behind in the WDC race, motivated to make up time and positions.

[sennafan24]

Rosberg is just Lucky his teamate got two DNF's and two brainfades in Q3 Canada and Austria. In straight fight Rosberg has never beaten his teammate so I will wait until that Happens before I even consider Rosberg one of the big Three.

Come on man, that is as biased and one-sided as LionKing is with his posts, just coming from the other side of the argument.

Nico is doing quite well this year. He has been fortunate with Lewis retiring in OZ due to no fault on his own, but the past weekend he managed to not have a brainfade as big as Lewis did. You have to give him credit and concede he won the weekend fair and square.

[dans79]

Rosberg is just Lucky his teamate got two DNF's and two brainfades in Q3 Canada and Austria. In straight fight Rosberg has never beaten his teammate so I will wait until that Happens before I even consider Rosberg one of the big Three.

Come on man, that is as biased and one-sided as LionKing is with his posts, just coming from the other side of the argument.

Nico is doing quite well this year. He has been fortunate with Lewis retiring in OZ due to no fault on his own, but the past weekend he managed to not have a brainfade as big as Lewis did. You have to give him credit and concede he won the weekend fair and square.

lets assume Lewis didn't dnf, lets assume Lewis finished right behind Nico instead. In this case Lewis would be leading the championship by 4 points. Thus Nico has been lucky, because instead of having a comfortable lead, he could just as easily be behind his teammate in the standings.

[Just_a_fan]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/06/25/2 ... ranscript/
- OK Lewis front brakes again over limit. Just have a think about the compromises.
- OK Lewis I know the position you’re in but if you can do a little bit of lift-and-coast to help these brakes that would help.
- OK Lewis just think about those front brakes again, they are going up.
- So front left brake over limit. Just have a think about that B-bal.
- Brakes now on the limit. Losing a little bit on braking two and three but that may be management.

Rosberg - Stop talking to me Tony, please.

This Canada DNF must have been a really freaky and unlucky occurrence.

50 Lewis Hamilton [to] Peter Bonnington Does he have a brake issue like me or not?
50 Peter Bonnington [to] Lewis Hamilton You are both in the same position so it will need management. So losing a little bit of time in turn six and eight. Just have a think about your diff high speed.
They both had brake issues this race too...

[SectorOne]

iotar forgot these messages, (and the lap counter since there was periods of 10 laps and even 32 laps where no messages were recieved about his brakes, except for good messages saying he´s well inside.)

"So you’re well inside the limit now on front brakes."

"Yeah brakes are under control now plenty safe at the moment so just keep managing them."

"So just losing out six and seven. Gap is at 1.6. And brakes are good. So apex speed five and six, just Nico carrying a little more."

Also you can see there´s a big cluster of the messages from lap 19 to 24.
Which if you look at the data, he´s right on Bottas gearbox.

Assuming Peter is telling the truth, that Rosberg has the same issues, it seems to me they both managed the brakes really well on the absolute limit.

I think Mercedes might have went a little extreme with the front brake cooling because i don´t think brake management from lap 10 was the plan.

[PlatinumZealot]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/06/25/2 ... ranscript/
- OK Lewis front brakes again over limit. Just have a think about the compromises.
- OK Lewis I know the position you’re in but if you can do a little bit of lift-and-coast to help these brakes that would help.
- OK Lewis just think about those front brakes again, they are going up.
- So front left brake over limit. Just have a think about that B-bal.
- Brakes now on the limit. Losing a little bit on braking two and three but that may be management.

Rosberg - Stop talking to me Tony, please.

This Canada DNF must have been a really freaky and unlucky occurrence.

Yeah, the Canada problem was the rear brakes. Austria problems was because they reduced the braking power as a safety measure. I don't think it was anything too difficult for the drivers to manage though.

[Pierce89]

Rosberg is just Lucky his teamate got two DNF's and two brainfades in Q3 Canada and Austria. In straight fight Rosberg has never beaten his teammate so I will wait until that Happens before I even consider Rosberg one of the big Three.

Last year, Smikle, you were claiming Vettel is the best driver.