Imminent F1 shakeup?

[Andres125sx]

What I've always found mesmerizing is how some manufacturers sing about economy engines and the like, yet all of their prestige models are running V8, V10, and V12 engines in those models. Mercedes is a great example of this. The Silver Arrow fans ignore how AMG is busy building twin-turbo V12's and V8's even in spite of this silly F1 formula. Why are they doing this? Because they know bigger is better and that is what sells. What filthy rich person is going to buy a car with a small engine when Jack down the street is packing some large....in his garage in the shape of a Ferrari F12? Ferrari is even looking to up the power in the F12 from 660 to 700HP.

As you say, most manufacturers continue using v8, v10 and v12 engines on their flagships, but you´re ignoring some data.... most of them are hybrids: LaFerrari, McLaren P1, Porsche 918 spyder, BMW i8, Mercedes SLS...

Why are they doing this? The reason is simple, manufacturers knows EV´s are the future, and hybrids are the way to start developing and learning about this new technology. Fuel economy is just a marketing exercice, reality is they all know EV´s are the future and they all need to learn about them as fast as possible, at least if they want to be considered premium companies in next years

It´s the same for F1, hybrids are a neccessary step in between before switching to full EV´s

[SectorOne]

But also some beneficial aspects, something no other power plant, or even cold fussion, will never have.

Like what? I can´t see how you can justify wind, solar, nuclear or hydro if the E-cat actually works as it seems.

[Andres125sx]

I want what I paid for. I want what's on the box, not the $hite inside it.

Who's not trumpeting Mercedes? I have. Full credit. They didn't compete for 2 years to concentrate on 2014. Awesome. And that's what the sport has come to - teams basically stop competing for years while they 're-build' to tackle a year off in the future.

So we end up having one team who dominates thanks to a 2 year head start, while every other team can't develop to catch up.

What's not to love?

If Mercedes didn´t compete for last 2 years, and even so they were second at last championship, then they´re too good

[Andres125sx]

Because I think you're wrong (which I've called you on before). The last 5 years had more scope to improve performance and gain an edge than we have now. With all the engines relatively stable, gains were made in ways that were easier to apply - and anyone could. Any team could have come up with the Double Diffuser. That some didn't wasn't a reflection of the rules, but a reflection of the oversight at the teams that missed that opportunity. The same could be said for the EBD, Engine Maps, Exhaust Blowing, Flexy bits, Various Ducts etc - all those solutions were available in the regs to any team that discovered them and implemented them.

There is no way, with this engine formula, that the same can be said. If you disagree, I'm all ears.

What about Mercedes split turbo?

[Andres125sx]

But also some beneficial aspects, something no other power plant, or even cold fussion, will never have.

Like what? I can´t see how you can justify wind, solar, nuclear or hydro if the E-cat actually works as it seems.

Sorry but, what do you mean? I don´t get it

[FW17]

Engine count reduced from 5 to 4 / season / car, How is that cost saving? Does engine contract straight of become 20% cheaper?

[SectorOne]

Sorry but, what do you mean? I don´t get it

E-cat = the most promising cold fusion product at the moment by Andrea Rossi.
http://ecat.com/ecat-technology

[Andres125sx]

Sorry but, what do you mean? I don´t get it

E-cat = the most promising cold fusion product at the moment by Andrea Rossi.
http://ecat.com/ecat-technology

Wow thanks, didn´t know it´s so advanced

I´m not sure if E-Cat could be used directly into cars to get by without energy store systems wich are the most limiting part, but anycase this is proving future is electric

This means companies need to develop this technology as fast as possible because nobody has ever used electric motors for high perfomance automotive applications, so they need to learn about motors, electronic speed controllers, or even wiring

That´s the reason for current regulations with hybrid F1 cars, or hybrid flagships for most top manufacturers like Ferrari, Porsche, McLaren.... Hybrids are not the future, but a neccessasry test platform to improve the technology and be prepared for the inevitable EV´s of the future

[SectorOne]

Wow thanks, didn´t know it´s so advanced

Don´t get too excited just yet though Too early to make any definite answer.

But two tests have been done, one by 2 Italian scientists, and the last one where you had the addition of 6 Swedish scientists.
Both tests ran for 96 and 116 hours.
They won´t make any conclusions but they have commented on the results:

… if we consider the whole volume of the reactor core and the most conservative figures on energy production, we still get a value of (7.93 ± 0.8 ) 102 10^2 MJ/Liter that is one order of magnitude higher than any conventional source.

Quite insane if it´s true. Third test will run for half a year so i´m guessing it´s running as we speak.


Btw sorry mods, can the discussion be moved to an appropriate place?

[GitanesBlondes]

What I've always found mesmerizing is how some manufacturers sing about economy engines and the like, yet all of their prestige models are running V8, V10, and V12 engines in those models. Mercedes is a great example of this. The Silver Arrow fans ignore how AMG is busy building twin-turbo V12's and V8's even in spite of this silly F1 formula. Why are they doing this? Because they know bigger is better and that is what sells. What filthy rich person is going to buy a car with a small engine when Jack down the street is packing some large....in his garage in the shape of a Ferrari F12? Ferrari is even looking to up the power in the F12 from 660 to 700HP.

As you say, most manufacturers continue using v8, v10 and v12 engines on their flagships, but you´re ignoring some data.... most of them are hybrids: LaFerrari, McLaren P1, Porsche 918 spyder, BMW i8, Mercedes SLS...

Why are they doing this? The reason is simple, manufacturers knows EV´s are the future, and hybrids are the way to start developing and learning about this new technology. Fuel economy is just a marketing exercice, reality is they all know EV´s are the future and they all need to learn about them as fast as possible, at least if they want to be considered premium companies in next years

It´s the same for F1, hybrids are a neccessary step in between before switching to full EV´s

Hybrids are not a necessary step, nor do EV's matter as it relates to F1.

See this is what most fans of F1 do not understand any longer - F1 has NOTHING to do with road relevancy, and it never did. It was simply about building a grand prix car that conformed to a prescribed formula, that could last long enough to cover the allotted distance in the quickest amount of time. It also was a contest of nationalistic pride between the auto manufacturers of England, France, Germany, and Italy. It's funny how when it was implicitly understood that grand prix racing was a sporting contest between the various auto manufacturers/independent teams and their drivers, there wasn't anything more expected from it.

This is a more recent phenomenon about this overwhelming need by the various interested parties out there to view grand prix racing as being something more than it ever really was. Sure it was about pushing engineering boundaries, but the boundaries the sport was pushing, was never meant to make it to the average road-going automobile. If it was, the entire thing would have been conducted in road-going vehicles...which is where sports car racing comes into play.

The push into needing to give off the appearance of "road relevancy" comes from the bean counters, and the shareholders of the various automotive manufacturers. In an era where every last cent is watched by the accountants, you have to sell the sh*t out of everything you're doing as being somehow beneficial to the company at large, even when it is not. That's how you wind up with an engine formula that makes little sense, offers very little in the way of energy savings, and doesn't even come close to matching what LMP1 is offering.

If F1/grand prix racing was still being strictly viewed as a sporting contest first, there wouldn't be the overwhelming need to be constantly tinkering with the whole thing to "spice up the show". It's very much the reduction of F1 as a sporting contest to one that is a purely an engineering exercise first, that has required the ongoing manipulation of many things to induce artificial theatrics.

When you start looking at F1's general boredom stemming out of the entire thing being an engineering contest primarily, it perfectly explains how you get the sh*ttiest racing slicks ever created by a third-rate tire manufacturer that historically could never match Michelin or Goodyear. It explains why you get DRS. It explains why you have a highly restricted engine formula. It explains why you have narrow track cars. It explains why you have knockout qualifying, increased point awarding from P7 through 10, and everything else. For as long as it remains an engineering exercise, increasingly moronic ideas will be pursued to try and restore the excitement the sport once had, all while being unable to do so because the entire base of the sport is broken. To go one further, F1 exists as nothing more than an investment tool for CVC/Ecclestone. That's why what goes on doesn't actually matter to them. This is an old-school mafia bust out that is focused primarily on fleecing state governments (and the taxpayers) for as long as they can before the entire thing blows up in their face. You'll see CVC divest fully of F1 as soon as they realize the bottom is about to drop out. They'll make a killing on the entire thing.

F1 as a test platform for hybrids and EV's...total sham.

[Andres125sx]

Wow thanks, didn´t know it´s so advanced

Don´t get too excited just yet though Too early to make any definite answer.

Yes I know, but if they succed this will change the whole world. Something to be excited I think

[Andres125sx]

GitanesBlondes, I agree on everything you said, but F1 is what it is today, you explained it quite good.

The era where it was a pure competition about race cars died a long time ago, when everyone could buy a car and race by himself. Today the investment is so huge you need sponsors, what bring us to the current situation I also repudiate, but it is what it is today...

F1 as a test platform for hybrids and EV's...total sham.

Not a test platform, but they, as well as manufacturers, need to learn about this technology for the oncoming changes we will see next years

Manufacturers need it to be up to date, while F1 need it to keep the picture of a competition where they use the latest technology. If you´d see LaFerrari, McLaren P1 and so on are hybrid cars, but F1 is still using ICEs alone, then F1 could be seen as an out of date competition, last thing sponsors want.

Since F1 teams need sponsors, they and FIA need to follow that route, like it or not

[Cam]

Unbelivable Cam, truly.
How is your failure to answer the question to the point, my failure in understanding?

As always FH, you have this uncanny habit of taking an original argument and going off track into something else - then casting blame because none of it makes sense.

Let’s go back to the start.

Discussion 1 - previous rules allowed for aero gains that all teams could discover or copy and develop during the year - should those chose to do so.

So we end up having one team who dominates thanks to a 2 year head start, while every other team can't develop to catch up. (in reference to current engines)

Go back 5 years and apply the same logic.

You’re saying Red Bull had a 2 year advantage and no one could catch up? Prove it.

I gave you evidence to counter that - you gave me none. So here’s one of the examples I gave - extended.

2010 - F-DUCT: The Red Bull Racing team complained to the FIA about the legality of the MP4-25's rear wing. The design uses a small "snorkel" air scoop mounted in front of the driver that channels air through a duct in the cockpit and towards the rear of the car.

Here is an aerodynamic design, made within the rules, that no one else saw. McLaren had a massive advantage. Teams tried to get the thing banned - failed - and had to play catch up.

Red Bull have introduced their version of the F-Duct system at Istanbul Park.

In Barcelona Ferrari have introduced a full version of their 'F-duct' system.

So Red Bull introduced theirs some 7 races later - Ferrari - 5 races. Arguably one of the finest examples of how a team other than Red Bull found, innovated and implemented an aerodynamic device - and other teams were able to copy, develop and implement their own solutions during a season. McLaren had this at pre-season testing!

In 2010 the key technical development was the F-Duct, a legal driver controlled system that stalled the rear wing for more top speed……During the first pre-season tests for the 2010 the appearance of the McLaren caught many people’s eyes.

Yet - you continue to assume that Red Bull was the ‘only’ one to have any aero skills.

Please note how EBD, "flexy bits", engine maps and "various ducts" were all Red bull innovations that took months and years for other teams to implement.

Well, it seems McLaren didn’t have their hands tied to compete? Nor Did Brawn with the DD, nor did Mercedes with their W-duct. At each time, every other team had to play catchup - and did - because they could and chose too. I can keep giving these examples in detail if you like?

So I’m completely bemused how you can keep making the assumption and public statements that one team had an aero advantage for 4 years?

Instead of mouthing off - how about coming up with some facts to back your assertions that no other team could produce aero gains plus a 2 year head start?

Discussion 2 - the appearance of domination

[quote="FoxHound""]In total it was a 4 year domination streak which engine companies had their hands tied to compete.[/quote]

The example I gave you of the Athletes was to illustrate how domination can appear (i.e. see: Illusion) that way when others do not compete at the same level. I did not say it didn’t happen (Hollus), it does, however, I consider it un-fair to accuse a team (any team) of dominating, when other teams have decided to turn their attentions to next year or beyond. What else do you expect will happen when all the competitors give up?

This point you have yet to acknowledge. Again. Disagree if you like, but bring an example of how a team does not dominate when other competitors give up - and are not called on it.

Unbelivable Cam, truly.
How is your failure to answer the question to the point, my failure in understanding?

How is your failure to provide any evidence to support your claims fair? How can we have a debate when you don’t read my posts correctly, take the argument off track and then blame me for making no sense?

I agree… unbelievable.

[NTS]

As you say, most manufacturers continue using v8, v10 and v12 engines on their flagships, but you´re ignoring some data.... most of them are hybrids: LaFerrari, McLaren P1, Porsche 918 spyder, BMW i8, Mercedes SLS...

The BMW i8 is a three cylinder 1.5 liter engine combined with a big turbo and hybrid system. So interestingly the only car that is a bit of a counter example of your list of V8s and V12s is from a manufacturer that quit F1 long ago. So they came up with this small-engine-plus-turbo-and-hybrid without F1 or LMP1 involvement.

[Andres125sx]

As you say, most manufacturers continue using v8, v10 and v12 engines on their flagships, but you´re ignoring some data.... most of them are hybrids: LaFerrari, McLaren P1, Porsche 918 spyder, BMW i8, Mercedes SLS...

The BMW i8 is a three cylinder 1.5 liter engine combined with a big turbo and hybrid system. So interestingly the only car that is a bit of a counter example of your list of V8s and V12s is from a manufacturer that quit F1 long ago. So they came up with this small-engine-plus-turbo-and-hybrid without F1 or LMP1 involvement.

I never said there´s any relationship between F1 and road cars

Not a test platform, but they, as well as manufacturers, need to learn about this technology for the oncoming changes we will see next years

Manufacturers need it to be up to date, while F1 need it to keep the picture of a competition where they use the latest technology. If you´d see LaFerrari, McLaren P1 and so on are hybrid cars, but F1 is still using ICEs alone, then F1 could be seen as an out of date competition, last thing sponsors want.

Since F1 teams need sponsors, they and FIA need to follow that route, like it or not