Imminent F1 shakeup?

[Agenda_Is_Incorrect]

Manufacturers need it to be up to date, while F1 need it to keep the picture of a competition where they use the latest technology. If you´d see LaFerrari, McLaren P1 and so on are hybrid cars, but F1 is still using ICEs alone, then F1 could be seen as an out of date competition, last thing sponsors want.

Since F1 teams need sponsors, they and FIA need to follow that route, like it or not

If it's all about image, then do a formula that pleases everyone. No one cares if it is the absolute most fuel efficient formula, as it pretty much is now (with the exception of botching 4 cylinders)

They clearly overdone it, why? Because 2 manufacturers with too much "contribution" to FIA want it. Better yet for them if 4 cylinders were approved, as most of their street cars are like this. Including you standard atrocity weighting 1,5 to 2 tons (metric) using a piss poor 4 cylinder gas engine that crawls on the street and consumes loads (and costs way too much).

This has nothing to do with outdating or efficiency, it's purely about marketing. Except things backfired and F1 became so boring views are falling and marketing returns are diminishing. In fact, I challenge anyone to say and prove whatever the future is for road cars. EVs have a multitude of better alternatives for the moment

[FoxHound]

As always FH, you have this uncanny habit of taking an original argument and going off track into something else - then casting blame because none of it makes sense.

Please read what you wrote. But let me remind you because it seems you have forgotten why I started participating in this thread.

The only hope now I have for 'real' top tier open wheel racing, comes from a glimmer of news combining Adrian Newey, Red Bull Technology Centre and Red Bull buying Viry. Newey is a racer, Horner can manage anything and Red Bull can put on a show. I hope for the love of all that is petrol pure and holy, that Mateschitz is planning a coup.
That shakeup, would be massive, and welcome.

I'll make this nice and simple for you.

Point 1. With accompanying evidence.
You place your hope in a team that has been on the grid 10 years for a sport that has been successful for over 50 years without them. It could be argued that F1 has gone downhill at a faster rate of knots since Red Bull's participation. The dwindling viewing figures since 2010 are a testimony to that.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112399

Point 2. With accompanying evidence.
Horner has proven he cannot manage "anything". Multi 21, flow gate, various Webber/Vettel tit for tats.

Point 3. With opinion.
You place your hope in a drinks firm buying out a motor manufacturer which is steeped in F1 history(Renault).
Fair play to you. But in my book that ain't cool...each to their own though.

Discussion 1 - previous rules allowed for aero gains that all teams could discover or copy and develop during the year - should those chose to do so

Point 4. With accompanying evidence.
Sure it is as simple as that.
Who other than Red Bull got the flexing wings/nose to work?
Tell me, how is it a Red Bull can look like this, and no other team could get close to anything near the insane levels we saw Red Bull attain?


Here's Horner's take on rake.

McLaren have developed a car that has a very low rear-ride height, and therefore a low front wing for them doesn't work.We run quite a high rake angle in our car. So inevitably when the rear of the car is higher, the front of the car is going to be lower to the ground.

Let me add, the closer your wing get's to the ground, your DF points figures start shooting through the roof.

So effectively, McLaren and anyone else with a car that could not be set up to attain such rake would have to wait for the following year to design and build a car that could attain this rake if indeed it was possible for them to do so without total redesign.

So I’m completely bemused how you can keep making the assumption and public statements that one team had an aero advantage for 4 years?Instead of mouthing off - how about coming up with some facts to back your assertions that no other team could produce aero gains plus a 2 year head start?

Autosport car of the year 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autosport_ ... f_the_Year

Red Bull's chief technical officer Adrian Newey later went on to claim that the car was "probably the car with the most downforce in the history of F1"(of the RB6).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Bull_RB6

The simple fact of the matter is that Red Bull are doing something with their car that others teams cannot achieve.
Aero sectors in pretty much all of the previous 4 years have proven that.
Red Bull kill aero like nobody else.

The example I gave you of the Athletes was to illustrate how domination can appear (i.e. see: Illusion) that way when others do not compete at the same level. I did not say it didn’t happen (Hollus), it does, however, I consider it un-fair to accuse a team (any team) of dominating, when other teams have decided to turn their attentions to next year or beyond. What else do you expect will happen when all the competitors give up?
This point you have yet to acknowledge. Again. Disagree if you like, but bring an example of how a team does not dominate when other competitors give up - and are not called on it.

It was a FROZEN ENGINE FORMULA, Cam.
As you like the athlete analogy.....a tri-athlete specialises in Cycling. Yet he must not train or improve his cycling whilst competing with far better swimmers and runners.
You say the competition gave up....So Mercedes gave up with the W04?That was their best effort since their return to F1!
You show a complete lack of knowledge for the way that team has actually gone about getting to where it is today.
Willis was busying the car along with Bob Bell, who took up a role at MBHPE to get the project up and running.
A future projects department if you will,that is looking at ideas for the next 2 years...unsurprisingly even to this very day.

Costa had and continued his team as it had been split in the big shake up of 2011/12.
Have Merc given up this year because of it? Of course not. They certainly had not given up heading into any season they have so far entered. So please, list the names of the teams who where challenging Red Bull, who gave up for 2 years.

Hollus called you out because what you wrote was incorrect. You are isolating this into something that is specific to F1, and are crying about it like it's the first time a team has dominated the sport.
It happens in all sport, as I have proven.
Oh and for the record Cam, the top 3 placings in the Constructors standings all have different engines.
1.Mercedes W05 (Merc)
2.RB10(Renault)
3.Ferrari F14T(Ferrari)

[jz11]

there was no exploit back then - the engines were all quite similar in terms of power, reliability, weight etc., so everyone could divert their efforts to anything else, RB excelled in aero - they won, simple as that, there is zero exploit - they were just better, everyone could do what they did, but they didn't, they tried, because the rules allowed it, they had the budget for it, but they couldn't get it to work - that is not an exploit from RB, they simply were better and their success formula worked

what now has happened - Mercedes have produced an engine package that is so much better than any other competitors engine, that there is nothing that any other (non mercedes engine, and even non "works" mercedes engine) team can do with the rest of the car to compete with them BECAUSE of the engine freeze, you can't get out of the rest of the car enough to compensate for the lack of 100-150 horsepower

if 7 races haven't convinced you, I think you simply don't want to see the truth, the current situation looks much more like an exploit than 2009-2013 ever was, and Renault wasn't even the most powerful engine during that time

and your point about constructors championship top3 is just silly

[FoxHound]

What's your point?

Team A can purchase an engine that has had upgrades within a frozen formula to make it more reliable...read more powerful.
It can then focus almost entirely on aero.

Team B builds its own engines but this fact is irrelevant as within the Freeze, it is forced to focus on aero.
Despite the team not having the aero wherewithal to compete with Team A...or Newey.

Also, within the current rules for this years engines... please can you point to me what is NOT allowed to be changed and what is?

And can you please tell me which issues are affecting Renault?
Are Renault 150hp down? Can you show me where you got this from?

As for my point regards the constructors top 3....what do you not like about it?

[jz11]

my point is that your point about RB exploiting anything during the 2009-2013 is nonexistent, there was no exploit - they had not the most powerful engine, but could design the rest of the car better than others - they won, that is not exploit - that is what competition looks like

and Mercedes F1 team is designing its engine just as much ar RB are designing Renault one, they work together, but I believe that Mercedes ties are much much closer to their engine department than Renault and RB are (Ferrari in this years case simply failed), so no - Mercedes F1 team didn't shift the focus from engine to chassis, aero - it simply doesn't work the way you're implying at all

regarding this years engines - the rules allow changes only regarding "reliability, safety or cost saving reasons" factors, this can of course be stretched to - we need more power, the current X part can't take it, so that is reliability issue of part X - change it - get more power, but the deficit is too great, so you can't really argue that the homologated 550hp engine needs parts changed because of reliability, because it cannot make 650hp that Mercedes unit can (numbers are just for example), it is greater overall design problem which can only be fixed through homologating new power unit

now I was looking forward to this season, exactly because of these big changes, I was expecting to see teams do all sorts of crazy updates to catch up with the leading team, but it didn't happen, because everything was pretty much locked down before and decided when we first saw the difference between this years Mercedes and the rest, which hands down beats all opponents (that wasn't nearly the case in last few years), and you can't argue that it is like RBs success in recent years - gradual increase and one point where it "all clicked", it is all pretty much down to power unit

regarding top3, who else did you expect to see there? how is that even an argument? and it show exactly the benefit of being a "works" team compared to the rest

[FoxHound]

my point is that your point about RB exploiting anything during the 2009-2013 is nonexistent, there was no exploit - they had not the most powerful engine, but could design the rest of the car better than others - they won, that is not exploit - that is what competition looks like

Which exploit are you talking about?

Let me just add here, that competition does not revolve around freezing engines and allowing aero development.
That hampers engine builders. The people that actually make and sell cars, and have more than just PR links to their teams.

Mercedes F1 team is designing its engine just as much ar RB are designing Renault one, they work together, but I believe that Mercedes ties are much much closer to their engine department than Renault and RB are (Ferrari in this years case simply failed), so no - Mercedes F1 team didn't shift the focus from engine to chassis, aero - it simply doesn't work the way you're implying at all

Why would Mercedes AMG not have a closer relationship with Mercedes HPP than Red Bull and Renault?
Red Bull are customers.
Mercedes built and paid for their own engines, why should they not gain an advantage from this? If you want F1 to truly go down the shitter, tell the team that builds their own engines they can't have the privileges that befits a team that, yup....you guessed it.... builds its own engines. Ai Curumba meu.

regarding this years engines - the rules allow changes only regarding "reliability, safety or cost saving reasons" factors, this can of course be stretched to - we need more power, the current X part can't take it, so that is reliability issue of part X - change it - get more power, but the deficit is too great, so you can't really argue that the homologated 550hp engine needs parts changed because of reliability, because it cannot make 650hp that Mercedes unit can (numbers are just for example), it is greater overall design problem which can only be fixed through homologating new power unit

Yes, we've been here before in "frozen engine" Formula when one engine was deemed to be behind.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/82246

This what Christian Horner has to say in 2010....

"The engine isn't supposed to be a key performance differentiator and therefore hopefully the ruling body will balance out somewhat the differences there at the moment

Cam....you reading this?

So the engine....is not....supposed to be...a key....performance differentiator....!
Give Horner credit....He wants a racing series where the engine is not important but the aero is.
Nice one Christian! =D> Not biased in the slightest there is he?
Of course there was a ruling and Renault made changes which allowed it to catch up to Ferrari and Mercedes, and of course help Red Bull to 8 titles and 40 odd wins in 4 years.

now I was looking forward to this season, exactly because of these big changes, I was expecting to see teams do all sorts of crazy updates to catch up with the leading team, but it didn't happen, because everything was pretty much locked down before and decided when we first saw the difference between this years Mercedes and the rest, which hands down beats all opponents (that wasn't nearly the case in last few years), and you can't argue that it is like RBs success in recent years - gradual increase and one point where it "all clicked", it is all pretty much down to power unit

And yet teams can still make changes and improvements.
Both Ferrari and Renault have improved the engine, since they first started out. Which makes a mockery of the idea that nothing can be done. It can, and is.

regarding top3, who else did you expect to see there? how is that even an argument? and it show exactly the benefit of being a "works" team compared to the rest

All 3 have different engines.

[Andres125sx]

Manufacturers need it to be up to date, while F1 need it to keep the picture of a competition where they use the latest technology. If you´d see LaFerrari, McLaren P1 and so on are hybrid cars, but F1 is still using ICEs alone, then F1 could be seen as an out of date competition, last thing sponsors want.

Since F1 teams need sponsors, they and FIA need to follow that route, like it or not

If it's all about image, then do a formula that pleases everyone. No one cares if it is the absolute most fuel efficient formula, as it pretty much is now (with the exception of botching 4 cylinders)

Do you know in the 80´s drivers also needed to care about fuel? That´s a turbo problem, you can use as much as you can (with some limits obviously, but never reached in race config)

It´s not me who criticize F1 everyday (sound, greeness, tires...), so it´s not me who should do a formula that pleases everyone

I accept what it is, would love to improve it many ways, but hey, nothing is perfect. MotoGP should have more top teams fighting for the championship, not just two. WRC is awesome but too difficult to follow, Nascar is very competitive but I find it boring without corners or braking points....

This thread goes about if F1 does need an imminent shakeup, I think yes, it need it, and think that´s what they´re trying... without success

But I don´t criticize if they´re trying to evolve the engines. Racing with 7 years old engines was a lot more debatable to me, and that was happening last seasson, not this one.

If you do prefer better sound with that old engines, I respect it, but to me that´s not F1

[jz11]

Foxhound,
how were the old NA engines, revving to 21k rpm, relevant to road cars? technology wise, not, as you said yourself, PR wise?

there sort of is an agreement between the series organizer, engine manufacturers and their respective customers that they all get the same treatment, except that in Mercedes case this year, somehow one team got new exhaust at the right time, which now is thought as a better one, but other customers got it much later

engine freeze is there to even out playing field, and not give one "works" competitor advantage over the "ordinary" team, because otherwise you will end up with 2-4 teams racing there, which definitely will not help advertising revenue and ratings at all

and this year, with so many changes, I was expecting the rules indeed to be open regarding the power unit, so there is a reasonable time to catch up with the competition, and, when they are more or less the same, lock the development and shift the focus, but that didn't happen, and I think you're living in a fantasy that changing a bolt there, add a screw there, replace this transistor here and an tuck in a larger wire there will make Renault engine suddenly make 100 more horsepower, it simply doesn't work that way, your argument - "And yet teams can still make changes and improvements." is just silly! they are 7 races in, and from race 1 they knew how far they are behind Mercedes, yet there is pretty much zero improvement, do you still think it is due to teams or the homologated power units?

or do I need to explain what homologation is?

and by the way, RB were already winning, with the engine they had before "reliability"(or as you call them - "power") updates at that time, didn't they?

[FoxHound]

Foxhound,
how were the old NA engines, revving to 21k rpm, relevant to road cars? technology wise, not, as you said yourself, PR wise?

Who cares?
It is about knowhow. If Ferrari can build a winning engine, they have knowhow.
That way when you ping the Accelaretor pedal in your La Ferrari, you are safe in the knowledge that the company who built it, also make ----hot F1 engines.
Believe that this sort of thing counts in a high end market place. It's added Kudos relevant or not.

there sort of is an agreement between the series organizer, engine manufacturers and their respective customers that they all get the same treatment, except that in Mercedes case this year, somehow one team got new exhaust at the right time, which now is thought as a better one, but other customers got it much later

Has there been an in season test this year so far? No.
So I'm going to guess that Mercedes tested it's new exhaust first, before supplying. Or would you have the exhaust sent to all teams with no mileage under it's belt. This way, The manufacturer take the risk and the reward first.
This is prudent supply strategy.

engine freeze is there to even out playing field, and not give one "works" competitor advantage over the "ordinary" team, because otherwise you will end up with 2-4 teams racing there, which definitely will not help advertising revenue and ratings at all

Can you clearly state where a works team has gained an advantage over a customer team in the engine freeze formula of 2008-2013?

and this year, with so many changes, I was expecting the rules indeed to be open regarding the power unit, so there is a reasonable time to catch up with the competition, and, when they are more or less the same, lock the development and shift the focus, but that didn't happen, and I think you're living in a fantasy that changing a bolt there, add a screw there, replace this transistor here and an tuck in a larger wire there will make Renault engine suddenly make 100 more horsepower, it simply doesn't work that way, your argument - "And yet teams can still make changes and improvements." is just silly! they are 7 races in, and from race 1 they knew how far they are behind Mercedes, yet there is pretty much zero improvement, do you still think it is due to teams or the homologated power units?

Clearly, you need to hear what Mr Taffin was saying a month ago....

Although all F1 power units were homologated in February and since then performance developments have not allowed, fixes for reliability are permitted and the new Renault units feature a new shaft in the Motor Generator Unit K, which harvests energy from the brakes as well as a new oil system for the turbo and stronger exhaust.

And Adrian Newey...

“From a performance point of view we’re clearly giving a lot away on the straights still. But there’s a lot of development to be had.”

Are all 3 of us living in Fantasy?
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/04/r ... e-chances/

and by the way, RB were already winning, with the engine they had before "reliability"(or as you call them - "power") updates at that time, didn't they?

If it aint broke why fix it then?

[Cam]

Let's agree to disagree.

I believe the previous rules allowed all teams to find aero exploits, to implement them during a season, that other teams could copy those and implement them during the year allowing catchup and advancement.

I believe at least one team stopped competing years ago to concentrate on 2014.

I believe this skewed the results.

I believe the current rules prohibit the same "copy & implement" abilities for engines.

You disagree. Cool. Let's leave it there.

[FoxHound]

Well I've given you the facts, Cam.

Fair enough you maintain your view, but I have yet to see anything of substance to support it.
Horner's quote on engines "not being meant to differentiate performance" seals it.

Now, imagine a scenario where Aero being "equalised" with some teams allowed to catch up due to, I dunno, having a crappy windtunnel....and once equalised the engines start making the difference.

You start to see exactly the bone of contention.

[Cam]

I still think we are/were discussing two different issues. No one denies the last years were aero dominant, I.e most if not all performance gains were located in aero developments. Do you agree?

Now, engines play the majority performance differentiator. Do you agree?

[FoxHound]

Hence why I asked you previously, why now do you feel dissatisfaction with the formula, when it's been like this for years.

[Cam]

So you agree with my points above?

[FoxHound]

So you agree with my points above?

I still don't think Engines are as big a differentiator as Aero has been the last 5 years. Red Bull are second in the WDC, and in Ricciardo's hands at least seems to be able to hang with the Merc's for a few laps at certain venues.
But Engines and Energy recovery are now certainly playing a big role this season I would concur.
With a new engine Formula, surely this is expected?

If they sounded like this:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrUCDK5A5KQ[/youtube]


We'd have no complaints. But again, this is not part of competition.