Imminent F1 shakeup?

[Agenda_Is_Incorrect]

Do you know in the 80´s drivers also needed to care about fuel? That´s a turbo problem, you can use as much as you can (with some limits obviously, but never reached in race config)

It´s not me who criticize F1 everyday (sound, greeness, tires...), so it´s not me who should do a formula that pleases everyone

I accept what it is, would love to improve it many ways, but hey, nothing is perfect. MotoGP should have more top teams fighting for the championship, not just two. WRC is awesome but too difficult to follow, Nascar is very competitive but I find it boring without corners or braking points....

Not inducing that you are responsible for making a formula that pleases everyone

You do have a point. Many motorsports categories have saving fuel as an important part (or even saving the car itself). F1 though, has reached a point were most of the race you are saving fuel and the cars go simply too slow. Someone made the maths here, in saving fuel mode they go slower than GP2. That's visible from TV as well, you get the perception that they are taking so long to finish a lap. And that perception is true!

Thing is, F1 has made a formula where (in a previsible way) it pays to have an engine that cannot sustain anywhere near top performance always, but just for a few moments. You have potentially more performance than last year's V8s for some single crucial laps (like qualifying). After that, you absolutely have to save not only fuel but the equipment itself. Not a notch or two like it was, but several.

This makes saving fuel (actually, saving the engine as well) mandatory for the biggest part of the race. When they compete at near full performance for too long, the next race they have problems. And to save enough fuel it is necessary to slow down too much, as they are simply asking for too much to be saved from such high performance cars/engines.

In the 80s a fast lap was insane and during the race only those in knowledge would see they were saving fuel. WRC is difficult to follow because FIA managed to ruin it, just like F1. It is now a sport only aired in few paid channels and even so diminishing the TV coverage. I had 2 channels that aired WRC almost live, with great quality. Albeit paid...

Now those channels won't even make remarks of the results in their weekly reports. They were about sports in general, so you guess the situation is ugly when they tell you the results of some obscure Olympics game and not a single word on WRC. Back in 2004/2005/06 when WRC was challenging F1 views, they decided to make their own coverage worse and took other measures to limit audience. The next year Mitsubishi, Subaru and other main players retired as a consequence.

The rest is history. FIA made it into a marketing fest for the remaining two manufacturers and now no one really cares about it. The same downsizing, ecobullshit theme was used. The cars from inferior categories are now almost as fast, much funnier to watch and more competitive. FIA killed any intention of rally being a really serious sport, even the top one is speed limited and slow

That brings us back on topic. In WRC there was an imminent shakeup. Apart from Ford and Citroen (not even Peugeot anymore), no one is left there. VW came in but that's it. Others just vanished from the sport or run other categories that are less restrictive. Maybe restriction is the key thing.

If it keeps that way, F1 is probably gonna have an imminent shakeup as well. My prediction is Renault and Mercedes or Mercedes and Honda being the only ones left. Redbull, McLaren and Merecedes will be those remaining as teams, all others getting out or being costumers teams (like in WRC). Free TV coverage is to be doubted to continue.

[Cam]

So you agree with my points above?

I still don't think Engines are as big a differentiator as Aero has been the last 5 years. Red Bull are second in the WDC, and in Ricciardo's hands at least seems to be able to hang with the Merc's for a few laps at certain venues.
But Engines and Energy recovery are now certainly playing a big role this season I would concur.
With a new engine Formula, surely this is expected?

If they sounded like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrUCDK5A5KQ


We'd have no complaints. But again, this is not part of competition.

I didn't ask you that. I asked:

I still think we are/were discussing two different issues. No one denies the last years were aero dominant, I.e most if not all performance gains were located in aero developments. Do you agree?

Now, engines play the majority performance differentiator. Do you agree?

Yes or no.

[FoxHound]

Ideally, in any shake up of Formula one, I would implement an equilibrium ruling.

If we look at a cars Performance potential as 100% say.
33% of its potential development should be Aerodynamic, 33% should be chassis, and 33% should be engine.

Of course a car uses more of one than the other. But the key here is development potential.
Get that right, and you're in racing valhalla IMO.

[FoxHound]

Cam

I've answered your question. NO
If that was the case, Force India, Williams and Mclaren would all be ahead of Red Bull.

[Cam]

So you maintain that every other team can catch and beat Mercedes purely through aero, fuel and engine map developments? Keeping in mind engine development is frozen. This is your position?

[FoxHound]

So you maintain that every other team can catch and beat Mercedes purely through aero, fuel and engine map developments? Keeping in mind engine development is frozen. This is your position?

Engine development is not frozen. I have given you links with Newey and Taffin to support this.
Hardware can and has been changed since the "freeze".
Keep in mind, Red Bull are using a Renault V6 and are currently sitting in front of 3 of 4 Mercedes powered teams and all of the Ferrari powered teams.
Either the Renault is not as bad as you think, or Aero does still make a huge proponent of car performance.

Your position it seems is extraordinarily one dimensional. It purports to saying the engine is the sole factor in Mercedes success. You make no mention of their energy recovery prowess, or the fact that the split turbo was a huge technical coup. Or that perhaps they have perfected FRICS. Or that maybe their aero actually works these days.
Heavens above know why the experts keep admiring this bad boy...


Nope. They gone win cos of the FREEZE!


I would bet my bottom dollar that it would take at least 8 months for Renault or Ferrari to get anything like that(split turbo concept) in the back of a car.
And from February, you are deep into October November by which time the Championship is effectively over.
Lest we forget testing is now limited...but hey, works both ways.

We have seen historically that Renault have implemented "reliability" changes to increase engine performance. This avenue still exists, along with even more yields in terms of software, mappings and energy recovery implementation and recuperation.
So it would be a massive boon to this thread if you would stop with this notion that nothing can be done to improve the power unit.

And since when in the history of our beloved sport has "every other team" ever challenged a dominant team?
Never.
Using this as the crux of your argument is not just fatally flawed, its short sighted in the extreme.

Anyhow ,If you want equality in engines with performance figures being equalised, then I want equality in aero with aero numbers equalised . Simple as that.

[Cam]

By engine, I if course mean power unit and all that is associated. I should have used correct terminology.

So, can Ferrari and Renault change turbos, ERS etc?

While I realize that some changes can occur under "reliability" clauses, fundamental changes cannot occur, can it?

[autogyro]

Here is another way of looking at it.
If all the teams had built exactly the same cars with exactly the same power trains, there would still be only one winner in each race.
If the difference in lap time was in the thousands of seconds what would be different.

[Cam]

Perhaps. Unfortunately the rules do not allow that to occur. There's something quite amiss when a 'competition' exists where the playing field is not even. Having one team dominate is fine, but preventing other teams from achieving parity or even finding their own gains, isn't cool. IMO.

[FoxHound]

They are not prevented from doing anything cam.
...[edited Flyboy]...
Everything in the engine can be changed if it can be argued it makes the engine more reliable. That's a fact you need to start appreciating.
Renault have a very good track record of making performance gains from these changes.

@autogyro
Suddenly, we have a spec series!
That is not F1, and never has been.

[Juzh]

They are not prevented from doing anything cam.
...[edited Flyboy]...
Everything in the engine can be changed if it can be argued it makes the engine more reliable. That's a fact you need to start appreciating.
Renault have a very good track record of making performance gains from these changes.

@autogyro
Suddenly, we have a spec series!
That is not F1, and never has been.

...[edited Flyboy]...

If that was true, they'd be changing things such as engine blocks, turbos and component placement 24/7 until they'd found the optimal solution.
Major improvements are not allowed, no matter how you spin it. That much was recently confirmed by both ferrari and renault. Everyone with half a brain cell knew as much from the start. Renault do not have a record of making performance gains from these "reliability" changes. They had to be allowed by the fia to somewhat equalize the engine because they couldn't do it under "reliability" clause and were still underpowered.

[jz11]

when you homologate an engine, you are giving FIA an engine and corresponding literature about it, it includes power output characteristics and so on, and you can, within current, rules develop-change components on that engine that increase the engine reliability as the primary aspect - reliability inside your defined power output curve, or close to it, that is what one person here doesn't seem to understand - engine freeze means - that is basically it - this is what you must work with till you homologate a new unit, while during the v8 era you could gain lets say 50hp on the base 700 (~7% increase, and it happened over couple years), you cannot within the current rule book gain supposed 100hp on top of base 500 (20% increase) during a single season!

you cannot - CANNOT make changes to your engine design where main focus is on improving power output, but you can improve driveability, power delivery aspects of the same unit (where ferrari seems to be struggling in particular), which somewhat might help to close the gap to the leader IF the leader would stand still and not improve their package in the meantime

and what I red in those article links supplied by this said person - there is room for improvement, but it will be very VERY difficult or next to impossible to challenge leading team this season, because this leading team is also developing its already superior package even further. And what else would you expect from the leading people in the involved organizations, say that - ye, this year is down the drain, Renault totally failed us, after couple races we see there is nothing to be done, we will roll till the end of championship with minimal effort and focus on the next years car/engine? What would those statements do for the ratings? Would these people ever again be allowed by their respective employers to talk to press again?

on top of this you have Bernie, who openly states - I don't have any problem whatsoever when one team totally dominates the field - meaning - FOM will do nothing to even out the current power unit situation

the whole engine freeze right off the bat after couple pre season tests just stinks from the competition point of view, if Foxhound cannot understand that, there is nothing more to be said or explained to him, let him live in his delusional world where he does his absolute best to fit every and all comment made by someone into his view and totally ignore any other opinion that might shake this Mercedes fanboys view on the current events

I agree that engine development is part of the competition and Mercedes have done really good job not just on the power unit, but the rest of the car as well, but since the engine has such a big impact on the rest of the car, it should not be locked down this much so early after so many changes to rules, when one competitor clearly is head and shoulders above others

and Horners words about improving reliability (or as Foxhound reads it - power) of the Renault around year 2010, was AFTER Ferrari and Mercedes already did that to their units during 2006-2009 and gained power as a side effect, they - Renault, were merely trying to catch up, which they did, and their end package allowed them to run blow exhaust configs which others couldn't, which didn't go well with them so they pressured FIA into "clarification" of rules banning such things - in an effort to - YES - even out playing field

[FoxHound]

I...... failed us.
Foxhound understand that, there is nothing more to be said or explained.

I have asked you to provide figures for Renaults supposed 150bhp deficit. Still nothing.
That is fantasy my friend.

I have provided links to quotes attributed to people directly involved with the engines and also end users.
Taffin and Newey. Hardware changes where made in May! A raft of them.

I'll repeat what Newey said. "Developments can be made".

Ya dig?

[Juzh]

I...... failed us.
Foxhound understand that, there is nothing more to be said or explained.

I have asked you to provide figures for Renaults supposed 150bhp deficit. Still nothing.
That is fantasy my friend.

I have provided links to quotes attributed to people directly involved with the engines and also end users.
Taffin and Newey. Hardware changes where made in May! A raft of them.

I'll repeat what Newey said. "Developments can be made".

Ya dig?

80bhp was the number most consistently talked about by F1 personnel.
There's thousands of speed trap numbers from race weekends where mercedes cars are consistently topping the charts by quite some margin, and you can't do that unless you have a major power advantage. And I'm talking MAJOR here. 20-30 bhp is not enough for such big differences. I've been also monitor car speed on f1 app and the advantage merc PU has on the recovery side is substantial as well. That's all old news though.

Regarding so called "developments" as you put it:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114660
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/114609
TADDAAAAA. Captain obvious to the rescue. Taffin is a PR monkey. Just look at his statements this year: "we'll improve next race, and next race, and again next race", all the while merc cars are getting more and more away. Guess what, if you're underperforming you need twice the gain to catch up. Simply improving is not enough, even if there's some progress. Not that there was much anyway.

Your position it seems is extraordinarily one dimensional.

I suggest you look in the mirror. Facts are not on your side. Illusions are.

[jz11]

I...... failed us.
Foxhound understand that, there is nothing more to be said or explained.

I have asked you to provide figures for Renaults supposed 150bhp deficit. Still nothing.
That is fantasy my friend.

I have provided links to quotes attributed to people directly involved with the engines and also end users.
Taffin and Newey. Hardware changes where made in May! A raft of them.

I'll repeat what Newey said. "Developments can be made".

Ya dig?

...[edited Flyboy]...

I'll ask you again - what did you expect Newey to say - it is all lost this year! Renault cannot deliver, we can change some bits here and there, maybe we will shorten the gap a bit, but, realistically speaking, Mercedes is so much better than Renault that we cannot compensate at our side. Good bye this season, tune in for the 2015/16, where we will back with the real contender!

Did you expect an interview with this type of wording? It would NEVER happen in todays politically correct media, but you can read this in between the lines, just like you could from other teams in the RB dominance era, but you, in your mercedes fanboy world, read something totally different there, that doesn't even make any sense for a normal person who can read and understand the rule book, comprehend the intent behind "engine freeze" concept and can remember history in a non-selective way.

And to make it clear to you - the 100-150hp deficit is just a ballpark figure that represents the real unknown difference in total power output and delivery of non Mercedes power units, which translates not just in straight line performance, but is affecting whole aero/chassis setup, where Renault/Ferrari powered cars need to run compromised setup to stay anywhere near competitive to Mercedes powered teams and not lose too much on the straight line, while at the same time losing some more potential in the corners as well.