Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

[beelsebob]

Maybe he's just more efficient at feeding the throttle on corner exiting, maximising power for the available grip or not exceeding it and spinning up the wheels?

Ding ding ding ding ding - we have a weener!

[SectorOne]

Nobody knows so far, we don´t have the telemetry to say what is causing the better fuel economy for Hamilton.

Actually, I would expect that to increase fuel usage, not decrease it.

A shorter lap, implies not going out as wide in corners, which implies turning tighter, and taking less speed through the corner, which implies having to accelerate harder out of them. The result - burning more fuel.

Not really, it´s such minute margins we are talking about here you can´t even spot it with the eye.

There´s so many areas where you don´t gain anything at all my going all the way out to the edge of the track, you just accumulate more distance to travel and more fuel to get to a certain point further up the road.

[beelsebob]

Nobody knows so far, we don´t have the telemetry to say what is causing the better fuel economy for Hamilton.

Actually, I would expect that to increase fuel usage, not decrease it.

A shorter lap, implies not going out as wide in corners, which implies turning tighter, and taking less speed through the corner, which implies having to accelerate harder out of them. The result - burning more fuel.

Not really, it´s such minute margins we are talking about here you can´t even spot it with the eye.

We're talking about 3% less fuel usage. That's not a minute margin.

There´s so many areas where you don´t gain anything at all my going all the way out to the edge of the track, you just accumulate more distance to travel and more fuel to get to a certain point further up the road.

You always gain more by going out to the edge of the track (assuming you're not compromising your next corner entry). Every inch you push out to the edge is extra speed carried through the corner, and less acceleration needed out of the corner.

[SectorOne]

We're talking about 3% less fuel usage. That's not a minute margin.

Minute margin in the difference of lines. It adds up over several kilometers.

You always gain more by going out to the edge of the track (assuming you're not compromising your next corner entry). Every inch you push out to the edge is extra speed carried through the corner, and less acceleration needed out of the corner.

No you don´t.
An extreme example of that is out of Ascari. If you go all the way out you start losing time (or at the very least make no gain in time) and what you have left is more fuel to burn and more distance to travel to reach either a worse or equal result then a person going straight ahead instead.

Similar things you can see in Canada. You can choose to maximise entry and exit all you want but you are just wasting fuel, distance and time compared to a guy who spends more time going straight ahead instead.

Turn 2 in Silverstone is another one. They don´t run all the way out even though they can perfectly fine get back to the left side. You´re just wasting meters for the same result.
You might have higher speed but you travel more meters and subsequently burn more fuel for an identical result.
Arrive at the corner at the same time but you did it by taking a longer route.

[Phil]

When talking about fuel usage; I still think it would be beneficial to know for a fact if Lewis gets the benefit of being under-fueled relative to Nico. If he is, then I would think that traveling that bit lighter would in itself result in less fuel being used. So the effect is somewhat exagerated and might not be the 3% we're seeing in the stats. The more marginal it is; the more difficult it becomes to pin point where and how he is getting better efficiency.

If he is also marginally better at keeping his tires in a better state, maybe these two things are linked? E.g.: By his driving style, his tires have slightly better grip (or are in the more optimal temperature range) leading to better car control (less sliding) and slightly better fuel consumption as a result (less drag)?

[PlatinumZealot]

Hamilton has a coast technique that he is proud of. He keeps chatting about his lifting and coasting to the press while curiously Nico has rarely if ever mentions lifting and Coasting.

HAM overcame his tyre life gremlins in 2012 where he was actually better at tyre saving than Button; Hamilton had on average longer stints than Button in 2012. So I think that explains that he learned from Button and became very good at tyre Saving since then.

Nico on the other hand, I always known to be a very aggressive driver. Even Schumacher said that Nico is aggressive. On a regular basis Schu could go longer with his tyres than Nico in the races. Nico also tends to heat up his tyres faster (Bahrain). Even in Silverstone, Nico went through 50% of his Medium tyres in only 5 laps!

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2014/07/09/2 ... ranscript/

[SectorOne]

2012 is a good point but it´s worth mentioning that Button went through tires like nobody else mid-season because he was nowhere with the setup.
Could not get heat in them, could not get them to work, wrecked them instead of using them fully.

Still not doubting though that he learned a few tricks from Button that was usually very good at taking care of tires.
(but then again, Perez seemed to trump him pretty good in that department)

[beelsebob]

We're talking about 3% less fuel usage. That's not a minute margin.

Minute margin in the difference of lines. It adds up over several kilometers.

You always gain more by going out to the edge of the track (assuming you're not compromising your next corner entry). Every inch you push out to the edge is extra speed carried through the corner, and less acceleration needed out of the corner.

No you don´t.
An extreme example of that is out of Ascari.

Bullshit - why do you think all the drivers went wide out of Ascari until a great big curb was put there. Hint - they're not just doing it for fun.

[PlatinumZealot]

When talking about fuel usage; I still think it would be beneficial to know for a fact if Lewis gets the benefit of being under-fueled relative to Nico. If he is, then I would think that traveling that bit lighter would in itself result in less fuel being used. So the effect is somewhat exagerated and might not be the 3% we're seeing in the stats. The more marginal it is; the more difficult it becomes to pin point where and how he is getting better efficiency.

If he is also marginally better at keeping his tires in a better state, maybe these two things are linked? E.g.: By his driving style, his tires have slightly better grip (or are in the more optimal temperature range) leading to better car control (less sliding) and slightly better fuel consumption as a result (less drag)?

I think is more than that at 4%.

4kg of fuel means 4% less energy to carry your car over the 305km. But It does not mean your car is 4% lighter...

Assuming 3kg contingency fuel HAMS car only weighs this percent of Nico's:
(670kg+96kg+3kg)/(670kg+100kg+3kg)
= 769kg/773kg
=99.5%

Assuming this is done as an intentional risk, Ham will have a very tricky job driving his car that only weighs 0.5% less than Nico's to the line with 4% less energy! (that is a factor of eight!). I didn't even mention the fine balance of speed of travel vs fuel efficiency (drive too fast and you use more fuel!)

So I do not believe a car lighter by 0.5% over a 305km distance is significant enough to be the main reason why HAM is that much more fuel efficient than Rosberg. It is obvious that their driving styles are influencing the fuel usage. They fuel them the same and at the end of the Race Ham just happens to use 4 liters of fuel less than Rosberg! That is quite a bit though... that is two Coca cola's worth of volume... Imagine what the engineers can do with that amount of space! hmm...

[SectorOne]

Bullshit - why do you think all the drivers went wide out of Ascari until a great big curb was put there. Hint - they're not just doing it for fun.

No it´s not bullshit. They went wide but not all the way.
Why?
Because there´s a point of diminishing returns since it´s faster at that point to not steer anywhere but straight ahead.

I don´t own a real team but i do have years of experience in simracing, racing with some of the fastest simracers on the planet and we have spent many days on skype discussing our lines, braking points, how many meters travelled, how much fuel used etc.

The fastest guy travelled the least amount of meters, had the best laptime and used less fuel then everyone else.
The rest of us just wasted time, fuel and meters to accomplish the same result, only slower.

Edit: still bullshit? 2002, 2005 and 2012. Now why don´t they go out all the way? So much laptime!!!
Because there´s no laptime over there. Just more fuel, more meters = same result or worse.

[basti313]

NOT German:

[beelsebob]

Bullshit - why do you think all the drivers went wide out of Ascari until a great big curb was put there. Hint - they're not just doing it for fun.

No it´s not bullshit. They went wide but not all the way.
Why?
Because there´s a point of diminishing returns since it´s faster at that point to not steer anywhere but straight ahead.

Yes, that point is the point of peak acceleration of the car. This is only relevant at corners that can be taken flat out. That is not the case for any of the corners on any of the circuits we have seen this year.

[SectorOne]

that can be taken flat out.

More like, sometimes when you are flat. Which happens a lot in many corners. Silverstone T2 is another one.
There´s many corners you save some distance here and there and not lose time in.

Just don´t call it bullshit anymore because that´s not very productive.



And not saying this is the case for Hamilton, just saying it could be.
Maybe Hamilton gets beaten badly in qualifying and feel he has to share his telemetry with us

[Juzh]

tbh sector, you're giving us cars which were pretty good in their time. Past ferraris as well as Mclarens and red bulls of late never needed to extend because they had enough grip to hold the line.
Schumacher in 2011 extended ascari pretty much every lap. He wouldn't be doing it unless he thought it made him faster. It meant he could flat the throttle a split second earlier and carry more exit speed, as opposed to holding the line.

[SectorOne]

They don´t go all the way out to the wall unless it´s a mistake. Never have, never will.
The ideal line is right about on the track limits line give or take some.

If my memory serves me correct, Whiting even decided to ignore track limits there because of this very reason.
You just don´t gain the time you think you do.