Hamilton Vs Rosberg 2014

[basti313]

The stop actually worked against him. Not really sure why they brought him in if there was no advantage to stopping because they thought it was a safety car.

The stop would have clearly worked for him, had there been a safety-car. He would have been on new super-softs, in a bunched up field.

I do not know, why you neglect that everyone would have stopped with a safety car being deployed...

No stop and the safety-car coming out would have meant trouble - a bunched up field and him having to make another stop later on.

He would have needed this extra stop also with the safety car. Two laps would not have made the SS last to the end.

Seeing as Merc and most of the paddock was certain a safety-car will be deployed, it was the most reasonable thing to do.

No it is not. To profit from a safety car you stop when the safet car is deployed and everyone has to drive safety car time. If you stop before everyone has to drive safety car time, you loose time and places.
We had this discussion with the safety car in Monaco...it is getting boring if such easy facts have to repeated all the time.

[turbof1]

No it is not. To profit from a safety car you stop when the safet car is deployed and everyone has to drive safety car time. If you stop before everyone has to drive safety car time, you loose time and places.
We had this discussion with the safety car in Monaco...it is getting boring if such easy facts have to repeated all the time.

Although indeed in Monaco pitting right before the safety car didn't deliver any gain, I still believe it isn't a given you don't win time with it.
As soon as the safety car is announced, but not yet on the track, everybody has to drive to a certain delta time. This delta time is of course much slower then normal race pace, but is still much faster then safety car pace.
If you pit right before the announcement, get out before the safety car is in front of you, you can drive to that delta time. The leader is the first one to be picked up by the safety car and thus the first to drive much slower then the delta time. During the time he's behind the safety and the time it takes you to reach the safety car procession, you make up time to the leader. A lot.

Remember, this is the whole reasoning behind crashgate.

Of course, the opposite is also true: you can loose time if things aren't going your way. You could have passed already the pitlane and getting stuck behind the safety car before you make it back round. But there is an oppertunity if you are considerably behind the leader.

But summed up, this is the flaw in your reasoning:

everyone has to drive safety car time.

Everybody has to drive in the first place a certain delta time before catching up with the safety car, at which point they indeed drive to the pace of the safety car. The leader is always the first one having to drive to the safety car pace. But all the rest who are on the same lap drive the quicker delta time before catching the safety car train.

Also mind that the time spent during the pitstop counts towards the delta time. Say you have to spend 20 seconds for the whole pitstop and you need to drive a delta of 60 seconds. You now can have a much higher average speed then someone who stayed on track, since the pitstraight pace is also slower then the pace of a car lapping the circuit under the delta time.
If you pit after you catched the safety car, 2 things can happen:
-Either you end up somewhere in the pack, which means you don't have the luxury of the compensation the delta-time/pit-time interaction.
-Or you end up way behind the pack. As long as you didn't caught the pack, you drive to your delta time. Of course it means you are last, save for cars which are allowed to unlap themselves, which means you made your stop way too late.

[andrewf1]

I do not know, why you neglect that everyone would have stopped with a safety car being deployed...

What difference does it make if everyone else stopped? He was the first to stop and came out 5th. If everyone else stopped AFTER him, he would have either remained 5th, been further ahead or maybe lost a place because of having to drive at reduced speed. Either way, the field would have been very close together, that's the point. Even if all of them would have been on new tires, charging from 5th to 2nd in a bunched-up field is better than charging from 5th to 2nd in a spread-out field.

He would have needed this extra stop also with the safety car. Two laps would not have made the SS last to the end.

Again, I have no idea what extra stop you are talking about. His last stop came 16 laps from the end, when he was expecting the safety-car. Regardless of whether or not the safety-car came out, it was his last stop.

Seeing as Merc and most of the paddock was certain a safety-car will be deployed, it was the most reasonable thing to do.

No it is not. To profit from a safety car you stop when the safet car is deployed and everyone has to drive safety car time. If you stop before everyone has to drive safety car time, you loose time and places.
We had this discussion with the safety car in Monaco...it is getting boring if such easy facts have to repeated all the time.

No.

Depending on your position on track, to profit from a safety-car you also have to anticipate it. If the safety-car is deployed and you've just went past your pit-entry, you're gonna lose another lap and an incredible amount of time, while everyone else behind you pits. Get your "facts" straight.

[Sevach]

The stop actually worked against him. Not really sure why they brought him in if there was no advantage to stopping because they thought it was a safety car.

The stop would have clearly worked for him, had there been a safety-car. He would have been on new super-softs, in a bunched up field.

No stop and the safety-car coming out would have meant trouble - a bunched up field and him having to make another stop later on.

Seeing as Merc and most of the paddock was certain a safety-car will be deployed, it was the most reasonable thing to do.

The guys ahead of him could have stopped and changed their tires after the SC came on, given that it's better to stop with the SC deployed and everybody driving around slowly, i don't see the point of stopping Hamilton early, Rosberg was 20s ahead, enough time for the team to pit him and prepare for Hamilton.

[Kingshark]

Traditionally speaking, Hamilton is stronger during the early middle half of the season than he is in the latter stages of the season.

In 2007 and 2010, if he had replicated his 1st half of the season form to his latter half form, he would have won the championship.
In 2013, he lead Nico by 43 points after Belgium, yet by the end of the season in Brazil, the gap was down to just 19 points.


This is great news for Rosberg, who is currently leading him by 14 points 10 races into the season (Summer is normally Hamilton's peak time of the year).

[raymondu999]

Was the extra stop and using 2 sets of SS tyres really quicker than a nose change and S tyres til the end of the race?

If he had gone soft at the last stop - he would only have done prime-prime-prime. He needs to do at least 1 lap on the supersoft for his race strategy to be legal

[SidSidney]

Today was a good damage limitation day for Lewis, hopefully his bad luck us done worth for the season.

I do find it interesting that people still think it is "luck".

[SectorOne]

I find it quite extraordinary that with all the DNF´s and the mistakes, its only 14 points separating them.

[astracrazy]

I find it quite extraordinary that with all the DNF´s and the mistakes, its only 14 points separating them.

same here. if lewis can have a clean 2nd half of the season then i still think it sides with him. This 1st half has been messy for him so he is lucky he is only 14 behind.

having said that, the way this season has been i can just see it will be the final race where lewis pips him with this double points

[prince]

Today was a good damage limitation day for Lewis, hopefully his bad luck us done worth for the season.

I do find it interesting that people still think it is "luck".

It is a bit unfortunate that, like many of my friends, you probably only watch newspaper to see who won and who has how many points. For most of the other people who follow F1, follow every inch the car is moving, the reality is different.

1) What do you call it, when the Best Driver of the grid has been stuck with a team that is producing dogs for the last 5 seasons?

2) What do you call, when engine fails before the race starts, when MGU-K fails when chasing for top position and when break fails when challenging for pole, when the team mate causes yellow flag and denies an opportunity to try for a crucial pole, and most of pit stops takes more time than his partner?

On the other hand Nico has been doing a great and consistent job, with only one DNF. The net result is still a 14 point deficit for Lewis.

[basti313]

No it is not. To profit from a safety car you stop when the safet car is deployed and everyone has to drive safety car time. If you stop before everyone has to drive safety car time, you loose time and places.
We had this discussion with the safety car in Monaco...it is getting boring if such easy facts have to repeated all the time.

Although indeed in Monaco pitting right before the safety car didn't deliver any gain, I still believe it isn't a given you don't win time with it.
.....

You are writing a lot, but not giving a working example. There is only one way to loose: You are the leader or you are so close to the leader that you do not have the opportunity to enter the pits because you are already on the start-finish straight once the safety car is deployed...a very rare case as the safety-car also needs time to leave the pits.

In every other case you have the chance to enter the pits without being stuck behind the safety car before.

But summed up, this is the flaw in your reasoning:

everyone has to drive safety car time.

Everybody has to drive in the first place a certain delta time before catching up with the safety car, at which point they indeed drive to the pace of the safety car. The leader is always the first one having to drive to the safety car pace. But all the rest who are on the same lap drive the quicker delta time before catching the safety car train.

Are you (again) trying to play stupid because I was writing "safety car time" and not "safety car delta time"? I do not know, why you start all this explanations, but I was talking about "safety car time" and there is just no other time given by the rules...I was not talking about safety car pace or race pace...

I do not know, why you neglect that everyone would have stopped with a safety car being deployed...

What difference does it make if everyone else stopped? He was the first to stop and came out 5th. If everyone else stopped AFTER him, he would have either remained 5th, been further ahead or maybe lost a place because of having to drive at reduced speed. Either way, the field would have been very close together, that's the point. Even if all of them would have been on new tires, charging from 5th to 2nd in a bunched-up field is better than charging from 5th to 2nd in a spread-out field.

No. Just look at the times. The best time for Lewis was a 1:19.9 on brand new Options. Alonso could do 1:20.5 in free air. In an DRS train with new tires, Lewis would not even had a chance to catch Alonso with his destroyed front wing.
At the front, 1:20s to the end wouldn't have been a task for Rosberg and Bottas. Absolutely no chance to catch them on new tires.

He would have needed this extra stop also with the safety car. Two laps would not have made the SS last to the end.

Again, I have no idea what extra stop you are talking about. His last stop came 16 laps from the end, when he was expecting the safety-car. Regardless of whether or not the safety-car came out, it was his last stop.[/quote]
Ok, I mixed it a bit: I am talking about the burning Torro at the end of the DRS straight. If you deploy a safety car for a car standing on the inside of a corner entry, where no one will ever drive, you HAVE to deploy it also for a car burning in the run out area at the end of the long straight. This was the more dangerous place for the marshals. That was the same case like last year with Webber's car burning.
This safety car would have completely ruined the race for Lewis.

Seeing as Merc and most of the paddock was certain a safety-car will be deployed, it was the most reasonable thing to do.

No it is not. To profit from a safety car you stop when the safet car is deployed and everyone has to drive safety car time. If you stop before everyone has to drive safety car time, you loose time and places.
We had this discussion with the safety car in Monaco...it is getting boring if such easy facts have to repeated all the time.

No.

Depending on your position on track, to profit from a safety-car you also have to anticipate it. If the safety-car is deployed and you've just went past your pit-entry, you're gonna lose another lap and an incredible amount of time, while everyone else behind you pits. Get your "facts" straight.[/quote]
You should get the "facts" straight:
- Lewis was 16sec behind Rosberg. Absolutely no danger of missing the pit entry as the safety car has to catch Rosberg.
- If the safety car would have been deployed right after the pit stop, he would have lost a place to Alonso even if Alonso would have stopped for new tires.

So where was the "track position" you are talking about?

[turbof1]

You are writing a lot, but not giving a working example. There is only one way to loose: You are the leader or you are so close to the leader that you do not have the opportunity to enter the pits because you are already on the start-finish straight once the safety car is deployed...a very rare case as the safety-car also needs time to leave the pits.

In every other case you have the chance to enter the pits without being stuck behind the safety car before.

I actually did - crash gate 2008. Help remind me: was Alonso anywhere close the leaders at the time?

Are you (again) trying to play stupid because I was writing "safety car time" and not "safety car delta time"? I do not know, why you start all this explanations, but I was talking about "safety car time" and there is just no other time given by the rules...I was not talking about safety car pace or race pace...

Well, take a good look in the mirror and ask yourself who is acting stupid here: you give some sort of comment on what you meant or didn't meant, but you still haven't done anything about my explanation that essentially during the safety car period cars run on 2 paces and not 1, which leads to a possible advantage if you pit right before the safety car.

[SectorOne]

same here. if lewis can have a clean 2nd half of the season then i still think it sides with him. This 1st half has been messy for him so he is lucky he is only 14 behind.

having said that, the way this season has been i can just see it will be the final race where lewis pips him with this double points

Yea just a bit of smooth sailing, no car failures when it matters and i can see him do another run of wins like we saw early in the season.

But all in all, season is fantastic if i have to say it myself.
Not often in F1 you have two guys sharing the same car going toe to toe for the championship.

The best part is.... Hungary is next week Finally a double-header!

[basti313]

You are writing a lot, but not giving a working example. There is only one way to loose: You are the leader or you are so close to the leader that you do not have the opportunity to enter the pits because you are already on the start-finish straight once the safety car is deployed...a very rare case as the safety-car also needs time to leave the pits.

In every other case you have the chance to enter the pits without being stuck behind the safety car before.

I actually did - crash gate 2008. Help remind me: was Alonso anywhere close the leaders at the time?

No...in 2008 we had different rules. Once the safety-car was deployed the pitlane was closed. So completely different case. Now we have a safety car time everybody has to drive and, thus, everybody who has a gap of about 10 sec can do a pitstop without loosing places.

Are you (again) trying to play stupid because I was writing "safety car time" and not "safety car delta time"? I do not know, why you start all this explanations, but I was talking about "safety car time" and there is just no other time given by the rules...I was not talking about safety car pace or race pace...

Well, take a good look in the mirror and ask yourself who is acting stupid here: you give some sort of comment on what you meant or didn't meant, but you still haven't done anything about my explanation that essentially during the safety car period cars run on 2 paces and not 1.

So your point is cars catch up behind the safety car? Can't discuss that.
No, I am talking about "free" pitstops under safety car delta time. Nothing else. And I do not think this is the right thread to make a big theoretical safety car discussion implying every possibility just because a Moderator is trying to prove his point and is throwing Boerd warnings for that...so I am out of this discussion, completely unemotional

[mkay]

Traditionally speaking, Hamilton is stronger during the early middle half of the season than he is in the latter stages of the season.

In 2007 and 2010, if he had replicated his 1st half of the season form to his latter half form, he would have won the championship.
In 2013, he lead Nico by 43 points after Belgium, yet by the end of the season in Brazil, the gap was down to just 19 points.


This is great news for Rosberg, who is currently leading him by 14 points 10 races into the season (Summer is normally Hamilton's peak time of the year).

Except that so many factors are different that you can't establish a trend here. Just like Canada where people would think Lewis would destroy Nico (to be fair he retired out of the lead and was faster throughout except for Q3, but lost out to reliability) or China where people thought the opposite and Lewis crushed Nico.