Why don't the lower end teams just copy the wings?

[SectorOne]

And you still would need the lower part, what makes the upper scanner useless

I would´t say useless, you can get the whole cokebottle, wheelbase, you name it from a scanner above.
Also the exact dimensions of the front wing. Basically you have a box to work in where you have to fill in the underside.

[marcush.]

Sure this approach is not a way forward.But then what is?
Marussia had Pat Symmonds who is called messiah at Williams todays but he seemed not to make a big difference there.

I don't think that's true at all. Marussia, for me, are now a mid field team. They're capable of reliably beating Sauber, and are only ~2-3 seconds behind Mercedes, which, given that the start of the mid field is 1 second behind Mercedes is no small feat.

I sure have a soft spot for Marrussia but they are not midfielders yet .period.Beating sauber is more a function of Sauber losing the plot again and them being a bit more affected by the rearbrakes woes than long wheelbased marrussia is.

I´m still gobsmacked about the true reason why new Teams take so Long to mix it constantly with the midfield these days as there is no obvious area they have no Access to .
Copying wings and shapes is not going to fill the void methinks ,it´s far more involved and not very obvious were those backend Teams really lag behind.

[beelsebob]

Sure this approach is not a way forward.But then what is?
Marussia had Pat Symmonds who is called messiah at Williams todays but he seemed not to make a big difference there.

I don't think that's true at all. Marussia, for me, are now a mid field team. They're capable of reliably beating Sauber, and are only ~2-3 seconds behind Mercedes, which, given that the start of the mid field is 1 second behind Mercedes is no small feat.

I sure have a soft spot for Marrussia but they are not midfielders yet .period.Beating sauber is more a function of Sauber losing the plot again and them being a bit more affected by the rearbrakes woes than long wheelbased marrussia is.

Really? I mean, I agree that Sauber have dropped the ball, but if you look at the gaps at pretty much any track, you find that they're within quarter to half a second of the pack. They're no longer lagging by 2-3 seconds as they did for several years. To me, they've made a substantial jump, and are basically part of the mid field now (albeit, the back of the mid field).

[Andres125sx]

And you still would need the lower part, what makes the upper scanner useless

I would´t say useless, you can get the whole cokebottle, wheelbase, you name it from a scanner above.
Also the exact dimensions of the front wing. Basically you have a box to work in where you have to fill in the underside.

And then you have to figure out how to fill the underside by yourself, wich bring you to the same scenario, it will not be an exact copy so it will never work close to the original

Anycase we´re talking about nothing, since teams can´t do a upper scanner, so they would have to do it entirely by eye, and aerodynamics can´t be copied by eye for the exposed reasons

[SiLo]

I think you have a very wrong idea of aerodynamics - it's as complicated as rocket science, if not more complicated- and that you aren't comprehending how difficult it is to get airflow patterns to match all around the car.

Just so you know, rocket science is actually quite easy. Theoretical quantum physics however...

Agreed with most here though that it's really not cost effective for lower teams and if they don't get it right, they've just wasted a lot of money.

[FW17]

Wasn't a C23 a copy of F2003GA? and if I remember was quiet successful

Concord was copied by TU-144 with different engines

in both the above cases I don't think scanners were used

[Andres125sx]

Wasn't a C23 a copy of F2003GA? and if I remember was quiet successful

I can´t see these two wings being a copy....

Concord was copied by TU-144 with different engines

in both the above cases I don't think scanners were used

Copied the concept, no the design

It´s same as when first team used first wing, or when Brawn used DD, RB with EBD and so on

Copying an aerodynamic design is quite different tough

[Miguel]

RBR and Toro Rosso used the exact same chassis for a few years, designed by a "third party", until Bernie had to return a favor to Frank. Still, set-up was different, mechanics were different, and the drivers were different as well. If you think about it, even in spec-series there is a noticeable difference between teams, and that's basically just set-up work.

I believe the clearest case of a copied chassis in recent years is the Toyota TF-103. Weren't some of Toyota employees actually jailed for stealing the F2002 blueprints, industrial espionage or something along the lines?

[wesley123]

I can´t see these two wings being a copy....
http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Ferrar ... Cav_02.jpg
http://www.formula1.com/wi/gi/597x478/J ... 04_294.jpg

Sauber received the F2003GA for 2004. That year saw changes to the front and rear wing regulations.

It wasn't copying or anything though, no they received the car from Ferrari and ran it in 2004 with updated front and rear wings. I don't believe it was very successful.

[Shrieker]

Let's say you have (very)detailed pics to copy the outside of the car accurately. What about the inside ? Without internal aerodynamics, your design is worthless. It simply won't work.

[Richard]

Also the aero is dependent on the suspension characteristics so a team would have to replicate that too. Oh, and they'd need the manufacturing capability to be able to make this new aero.

So while I can see that teams could gain by copying basic principles such as in/outwash or high/low nose, I suspect the aero design is too nuanced for copying in detail.

[erlik]

Do you think if it would be interesting that FIA, in some fictional scenario, fix some simple fw and rw design and make it mandatory to all teams. So no wing development... just rest of the chassis.

[CBeck113]

Do you think if it would be interesting that FIA, in some fictional scenario, fix some simple fw and rw design and make it mandatory to all teams. So no wing development... just rest of the chassis.

NO.




Alright, I'm calm now, and will explain. The FiA has regulated F1 into a farce. Engines, suspensions, chassis...all restricted to the point that most cars look the same. When they also start handing out wings as well, then there's no more engineering needed in F1, just open your box from Bernie and put your car together. No thanks. It is not just a driver's chanpionship, it is a team championship as well, and a team is not just two drivers.

[erlik]

Do you think if it would be interesting that FIA, in some fictional scenario, fix some simple fw and rw design and make it mandatory to all teams. So no wing development... just rest of the chassis.

NO.




Alright, I'm calm now, and will explain. The FiA has regulated F1 into a farce. Engines, suspensions, chassis...all restricted to the point that most cars look the same. When they also start handing out wings as well, then there's no more engineering needed in F1, just open your box from Bernie and put your car together. No thanks. It is not just a driver's chanpionship, it is a team championship as well, and a team is not just two drivers.

I was just thinking what it would be like if aero is more restricted (anyway it is beyond any real life use, but than again f1 doesn't have to have real life relevance) and engine devopment, for example, is more loose (engine manufacturers would be obligated to deliver all latest updates to clients etc)...

[strad]

Let's say you have (very)detailed pics to copy the outside of the car accurately. What about the inside ? Without internal aerodynamics, your design is worthless. It simply won't work.

Good heavens...someone who understands something I tried to explain a long, long time ago. =D>