Run-Off Area Alternatives

[andylaurence]

I think the best way would be to make the act of leaving the official track boundaries it's own punishment. I like the idea of a low grip area before the runoff so the driver will be punished (slowed) simply by leaving the official racing surface.

No rules, electronics, monitoring or outside decisions needed. If you leave the "track" you would go slower.

I don't know why this idea keeps coming up as something that would be great to see. We have that already at many F1 circuits. The drivers have worked out how to deal with these surfaces - just straighten up the wheel, drive over the slippery bit and gun it when back on the tarmac. The best example of this is Hungaroring 2011 in the wet where some drivers didn't straighten up and spun, whilst others did straighten up and lost very little time.

The idea of a transponder loop on the exit of the corner is already in use in the UK. Sensors are fitted on the exits of corners and infringements are logged automatically. It requires less man-power than observers at each corner and is less error-prone. It's also cheap enough that a national level circuit can afford it. International circuits hosting F1 races shouldn't have a problem installing the kit, but it's worth noting that they changed the rules in the UK for off-track infringements in order to use these sensors. It used to be four wheels off was an infringement, but now all 4 wheels must remain within the white lines (or on the painted kerb if there is one). One wheel goes off and it hits the sensor.

[SectorOne]

We have that already at many F1 circuits.

Not severe enough. For example with a system similar to mine at Silverstone, Kimi would be up on the track dead last rather then just pinning it through the whole off-track zone.

I think having paint that shows on wheels, sensors, some kind of step built into the edge of the track and electronics in general is just overly complicated systems to something that can be made much more easily and more importantly, much cheaper.

There´s no need for that type of system if the system you have creates the penalty right there through car vs more slippery surface alone.
For example putting a wheel outside the track limit = understeer and off you go = penalty served.
No need for GPS or any of that to see if someone went off, everyone will know he went off because he just lost 10 places in the process.

[andylaurence]

We have that already at many F1 circuits.

Not severe enough.

How do you make it more severe? Make the slippery bit wider? The drivers will just drive out further on the slippy bit before gunning it on the tarmac. Make it slipperier? No difference (see Hungaroring 2011 for evidence).

[CBeck113]

The problem is simple: slippery = driver has no control = dangerous. So either the run off areas must be huge to insure that the driver doesn't hit the wall but receives his due punishment, or the run off ares stay the same as now, and the danger that an accident occurs is increased. This is why the idea isn't the optimum. I do believe that the F1 drivers have very little risk and yet enjoy complaining about it quite alot (especially for the money they earn in the process), but I also cannot understand increasing the risk as a penalty.

[Moxie]

There´s no need for that type of system if the system you have creates the penalty right there through car vs more slippery surface alone.
For example putting a wheel outside the track limit = understeer and off you go = penalty served.
No need for GPS or any of that to see if someone went off, everyone will know he went off because he just lost 10 places in the process.

I must respectfully disagree. There was such finality when a car hit the Armco. The sense of catastrophic error has all but disappeared in regards to racing within the track limits. There was suspense on every lap as a driver pushing hard might just rub a wall with the rear wheel. There is no reason why today driver error must be any less final, yet still safer for the driver.

[SectorOne]

How do you make it more severe? Make the slippery bit wider? The drivers will just drive out further on the slippy bit before gunning it on the tarmac. Make it slipperier? No difference (see Hungaroring 2011 for evidence).

i´ve shown one way to do it, they just can´t gun it up on the track again.
Kimi could never have done what he did in Silverstone if there was stripes of astro-turf on the tarmac but since it was only tarmac, no problem, go past the curb, gun it with everything you have and enter the circuit at full speed again, not much of a loss there.

Hungaroring 2011 with stripes would have been way more severe because you have water, then astro-turf so the grip level goes down even more with rain.

When Vettel went off in Hungary Turn 3, he lost the lead, with astro-stripes he probably would have lost a position to Button as well. Now to me that sounds like he´s taken an adequate penalty. He went wide, gained no time and lost a position.
that´s exactly what you want.

With the astro-stripes an easy mantra to follow is: "proceed with caution" and if they don´t, then you honestly deserve to put the car in the wall. That´s your choice if you want to go flat out over astro-turf and play with lady luck.
These are grown men we are dealing with here.

If Kimi had done the same thing in silverstone but over astro-stripes he would have taken himself out of the race, he would never have made it out on track because of his decision to floor it out on track again and almost kill Chilton and destroy Massa´s race.

The problem is simple: slippery = driver has no control = dangerous.

Rain is slippery and yet drivers have control.
If you know it´s slippery it´s safer then not knowing
(which is something they have to figure out when it´s damp conditions, and we haven´t banned damp conditions)

[SectorOne]

Here´s another one, as you can see, doing a "kimi" with a wide arc just flooring it up on the track again is impossible.
It´s not teflon but if you push with enough lateral loads the rear will give out under acceleration.

Interlagos, turn 4 i believe.

The thick green line around the edge is perfect because everyone will respect the track limits, if they don´t then you have to go straight ahead, slow it down, turn it around and proceed with caution as you accelerate out on track again.
The result is that you will lose a heap of time whereas before you could just go off track, keep high lateral loads and be back on form shortly after. They won´t even attempt to put a wheel on that line.

No need for super complex GPS devices or built in speed bumps that allows cars out but not in.
They are already asphalting everything, all you need a couple rolls of astro-turf (or any other material that deters drivers from flooring it over them)

[beelsebob]

And here's what would happen with that design, if he'd carried just minutely more speed into the corner.

[SectorOne]

Not really, you´re assuming all of a sudden he lost the ability to steer his F1 car. Which isn´t the case.
If he were to go on that path, he can let up and take the right one, slow down and get back on again.
It´s not ice.

[tarzoon]

And here's what would happen with that design, if he'd carried just minutely more speed into the corner.

I suppose it happens anyway already.

The idea sounds good.

[strad]

The answer is so simple. Replace the kerbs with real kerbs instead of these low jokes of kerbs that they can simply drive over and cut corners. There are no real kerbs or punishment for driving over them. About the time you have real kerbs that stuff would stop.
It all hinges on them having no fear of running over them so they exceed their ability to stay on track.
Their cars are so safe they don't fear accidents and the tracks so safe they have no fear of leaving the track either on purpose or by accident. Force them to drive within their limits.

[NTS]

And here's what would happen with that design, if he'd carried just minutely more speed into the corner.

Why not reverse the pattern? Imagine the same corner but in the other direction. Still no way to floor it, but much safer.

[flynfrog]

why not just drop the runoff area of the track by a few inches. Car goes off cant rejoin over the bump.

[Tim.Wright]

The answer is so simple. Replace the kerbs with real kerbs instead of these low jokes of kerbs that they can simply drive over and cut corners. There are no real kerbs or punishment for driving over them. About the time you have real kerbs that stuff would stop.
It all hinges on them having no fear of running over them so they exceed their ability to stay on track.
Their cars are so safe they don't fear accidents and the tracks so safe they have no fear of leaving the track either on purpose or by accident. Force them to drive within their limits.

I like the idea of having something small on the ground to rip the suspension off a car if they go too wide. With the amount of runoff there are no real safety concerns as long as they are shaped so that they don't send the cars too airbourne.

They would need to be removable for MotoGP though...

[SectorOne]

I like the idea of having something small on the ground to rip the suspension off a car if they go too wide.

I think it´s cheaper to simply DNF anyone who has four wheels outside the track limits if you want to remove the person from the race altogether. It would have the same effect.

I thought the idea was to keep cars running, but penalize people who goes off so they don´t get either an advantage or momentum thanks to all these asphalt runoffs.

If you don´t want any car to enter the race again you make it simple to the drivers:

If anyone of you is caught on camera putting all four wheels of the racing line you get DNF:d, no three chances crap, you get one chance and you´re out.

Way simpler if that´s the sort of outcome you are after.