Is team order tactics such as McLarens acceptable in 2007?

[manchild]

Torso, I've watched Australian GP in 1996, I'm 34, I've watched F1 for over 10 tears before Australian GP 1996 (Villeneuve on pole, his maiden race, led most of it and than had to slow down (team order) because he had oil leek that turned white on Hill's Rothmans livery into dirty yellow)...

I'm not saying that Mclaren didn't order LH not to overtake FA but that's very different from Austrian GP 2002. Mclaren's orders from Monaco 2007 did not change race order while Ferrari's have. That's a huge difference.

They had 1-2 and I don't see it as a rational thing to allow overtaking and to risk trading 1-2 for DNF-DNF. So, Mclaren's order did not change the situation on the circuit so I don't think it can be considered as manipulation.

[captainmorgan]

Being told to 'slow down' over the radio is pretty weak evidence for team orders. If Hamilton was actually told not to race Alonso, that'd be a different story. But in the initial part of the race, Alonso and Hamilton WERE racing each other. You could see the change in Alonso's driving style when he and Hamilton were trading fastest laps. That was probably the best racing I've seen since Suzuka '05. Both of them were 'pushing' to the point where Hamilton was apparently hitting walls, and Alonso was 4-wheel drifting at the swimming pool.

At that point it's unreasonable to expect Ron Dennis NOT to tell both his drivers to take it down a notch if they're hitting the armco or taking too much rumble strip or having near-offs.

And that's not even considering the extenuating circumstance that is Monaco. When has there ever been passing with equivalent cars, disregarding retirements? Monaco racing happens at qualifying, and Hamilton tripped up at Loews, overcorrecting when Webber was nowhere near him. Alonso took pole, as well as fastest lap when they were racing each other on Sunday.

At the very worst, or if you are contemporary British media, it's a driver's tie but a McLaren victory. And yeah, RD can be faulted on some abstract level for not sacrificing 18 points and a Monaco victory in return for letting the two race at the limit. But the level of cynicism at Monaco is nowhere near Austria '02 or even Indy '05 (I'll accept that this is open to debate, but if you reopen one thread you might as well reopen others).

But overall I see no reason why anyone could complain. Monaco just shows how good the rest of the season is going to be

[FLC]

I think you people are missing a point here, with all do respect.
I think the most intriguing is the fact that Mclaren admitted that LH had fuel onboard for 6 laps more than FA (which makes LH's qualifying lap amazing, only 0.179 sec. adrift from FA's time, and he complained Webber slowed him down).
Hamilton also admitted after the race that he was surprised to be called in only 3 laps after Alonso. They also said that Alonso saved some fuel, but could he had saved such amount of it, equal of 3 laps? Could he have done it while knowing that LH is after him? and if so why didnt Hamilton say instead that he was surprised to see Alonso go in so late? 3 laps is too much to be considered a simple mistake and/or something that just happens. Thats is why I think Hamilton's race was pretty much over even before the second pit stops.
After that, being told to slow down or not, that could only make him a little or a lot more frustrated.

I dont think Mclaren should be punished at all on this matter. I think they should let Dennis eat is own cake as it is. Judging from the faces of LH and his father at the end of the race, it's going to be very interesting.

[MRE]

There is only one "team" could win 1-2 in Formula One GP without a doubt from FIA. If the others did, that must be something "wrong" with them. I'm already sick of this.

Look at first corner incident in 2007 Spanish GP. Absolutely a legal or FANTASTIC move from Fee...err if forgot that driver. What about the incident in Monza 2006. Ohh..."That's is illegal....!!!! You should be punish for that". This is a something you should live along if want to stay in Formula One.

[pRo]

I agree with Trollrso: McLaren has issued team orders.

Great post Ciro! Thanks for the laugh.


FIA should investigate why McLaren was the only team who was actually racing and why the rest just cruised for the points.

[captainmorgan]

Hamilton's fuel load is a valid point, I'll admit. If he did have 6 laps on Alonso, then he could conceivably have caught up to Alonso and maybe passed at the first pit stop. However I doubt this for several reasons. Mostly because Hamilton was I think around 5 (or was it 10) seconds behind Alonso when the latter pitted. Would Hamilton have been able to push a 10 second gain in those 6 laps? Alonso saved some fuel, so it may even have been less of a gap. The problem with this is that Alonso pushed just as hard on his out- and subsequent laps that might have made a pass even more unlikely or costly.

Even if that isn't accurate (I don't know where to find laptime data), the question that I think the FIA, British media, and the remarkably consistently red-icon-ed forum members on F1T have to answer is: Why on earth would Ron Dennis issue team orders that would benefit Alonso rather than Hamilton, if it wasn't based on either Q2 or Q3 performance? Team orders are usually for the leader in WC points, and that was Hamilton before the race.

Furthermore, why would RD give Hamilton a heavier load in Q3 at all? The only two explanations that make sense are that RD determined that the actual race would be Q2 (or that this ended up being the situation when both drivers started risking their cars). The alternative explanation is that RD has committed to Alonso winning the WC. McLaren's history and reputation, and Hamilton's pre-Monaco WC points argue against the latter

[Seas]

I think you people are missing a point here, with all do respect.
I think the most intriguing is the fact that Mclaren admitted that LH had fuel onboard for 6 laps more than FA (which makes LH's qualifying lap amazing, only 0.179 sec. adrift from FA's time, and he complained Webber slowed him down).
Hamilton also admitted after the race that he was surprised to be called in only 3 laps after Alonso. They also said that Alonso saved some fuel, but could he had saved such amount of it, equal of 3 laps? Could he have done it while knowing that LH is after him? and if so why didnt Hamilton say instead that he was surprised to see Alonso go in so late? 3 laps is too much to be considered a simple mistake and/or something that just happens. Thats is why I think Hamilton's race was pretty much over even before the second pit stops.
After that, being told to slow down or not, that could only make him a little or a lot more frustrated.

I dont think Mclaren should be punished at all on this matter. I think they should let Dennis eat is own cake as it is. Judging from the faces of LH and his father at the end of the race, it's going to be very interesting.

Plus, Ron admitted: (Quote from http://www.itv-f1.com/News)
“However there is some disappointment because of the different strategies we needed to follow to cope with a potential deployment of the Safety Car which has happened four times in the last five years.
“Consequently you virtually have to decide in advance which one of the team’s two drivers will claim the victory.
“Once the first round of pitstops had taken place we reverted Lewis from a one-stop-strategy to the faster two-stop strategy and at the same time slowed both cars down to conserve the brakes.
“As a team we would like to race but this circuit requires a disciplined approach and as a result we can leave Monte Carlo with the maximum amount of points.”
For the first time in his short Formula 1 career, Hamilton looked slightly disappointed in the post race press conference after claiming his fourth successive second place.
And when asked if he was frustrated by having to qualify with more fuel than his team-mate, he conceded that despite his sensational start to his F1 career, his rookie status meant that Alonso was the team's senior driver.
“At the end of the day, I am a rookie,” Hamilton said.
“I am in my first season in Formula 1 and I have finished second in only my first Monaco Grand Prix so I really can't complain, but to see that I am of a similar pace to Fernando is a positive for me.
“But it is something I have to live with.
“I've got number two on my car. I am the number two driver.”


Basically, I’m against team orders. I know that nobody can prevent teams of doing so, but what I really hate is when somebody practicing team orders so openly. I am an Ferrary fan, but after Austrian GP 2002, I can’t believe that this kind of s**t is possible. I was so angry on Ferrary (but only few days).
But reading this post… is so funny that people is so agitated if somebody expres his opinion. This is only Torso’s opinion. All British newspaper writing about McLaren’s team orders, but Torso can’t. That’s funny. OK, he is maybie wrong about some races and team orders, but come on…!

[nae]

surely if we extrapolate the argument then all the teams should be punished in some way. after all they all have the stated aim of effecting the outcome of a race and when the team principle asks the design department to make him a fast car surely that also effects the outcome of the race.

or am i wrong

it is splitting hairs but then again when you have a rule that is as vague as this one what else should we expect.

[DaveKillens]

it is splitting hairs but then again when you have a rule that is as vague as this one what else should we expect.

That's the problem... does this arrogant declaration of ordering the drivers to maintain station constitute affecting the outcome? Not really, it's my personal belief that if Hamilton had launched a true challenge, then Alonso would have been able to respond. So barring the drivers colliding, we most likely would have seen Alonso 1st, Hamilton 2nd .... anyways.
So according to the current rules.. not guilty. But in reality, they were under orders.... my head hurts, I think I'll order whatever Ciro is drinking...

[Tom]

I sometimes wonder if the drivers themselves actually know what fuel load they carry, and would they know what they're team mate was hauling. I could see no reson to tell them.
Of course if Lewis had gone for it from the start rather than losing 11 secs then perhaps he could have leapfrogged in the pitstops anyway, I don't understand why he was so upset. If Ron hadn't issued 'team orders' I have no doubt Lewis would have attepted a pass, although I don't want to think about the concequences.
Any news on the FIA decison?

[dumrick]

If Ron hadn't issued 'team orders' I have no doubt Lewis would have attepted a pass

Really? Then, Ferrari must have issued team orders for Raikkonen "not to pass" Button or Heidfeld, I figure... because naturally his difference in pace in relation with Button or with Heidfeld with cold tyres and full tanks was greater than any eventual Hamilton-Alonso pace difference.

C'mon, I've watched three races in Monaco on Sunday and there wasn't a single overtake attempt. You cannot overtake in Monaco, and that's it.

This all issue is just bullshit. McLaren covered his a** because they could, they were so much faster than any other car they didn't risk anything: they covered the possibility of rain or Safety Car interventions by sending their drivers in two different strategies. BMW did the same, using inverse strategies with their two drivers. Ferrari couldn't do the same, only because Raikkonen was far back: Massa was in the theoretically faster strategy and Raikkonen was in a late single-stopper, to grab a few places between its opponent's stops and his own...
Of course, when your drivers are in different strategies there is one that is better than the other. These different strategies are, basically, a plan A and a plan B. What any of this has to do with team orders, I don't know. Again: more so, in Monaco, where a 4 sec./lap pace difference between cars doesn't make an overtaking possible...

[Tom]

I said "would have attepted" I didn't suggest he would pull it off, just that, given the chance of his first win, and at Monaco, he would have had a serious look down the inside of the chicane or somewhere. Whats more Kimi was racing for the very last points, perhaps if he had been racing for the win he would have made a much bigger effort to get through.

The Mclarens probably where on a different stratergy but from Hamilton's body language after the race and his pace on the race track it was clear he believed, given the chance, he could have overtaken Alonso.

I'm not saying that Hamilton didn't win as a result of team orders, I'm am saying that Lewis was told to slow down near the end to avoid him making any rash moves and wiping both cars out. Perhaps Ron should argue that he issued the instruction as a safety measure. The FIA like safety.

[modbaraban]

I think I'll order whatever Ciro is drinking...

I order the same. Does that makes it a 'team order'?

PS: I honestly thought that Ciro's post would be the last in this thread to conclude it

[DaveKillens]

Although I may have personally come to terms with the fact that there are team orders in F1, that doesn't mean I am totally happy with the situation.
Monaco may be the exception because of so many high-rollers and such in the crowd, but I feel for the ordinary working sod who watches an organized procession rather than a "race". Most of us have to save for a few months, and make time to attend a Grand Prix event. It costs a lot of dough to attend and participate in all the festivities of a Formula One weekend. But what most come for is to see "racing", where the best drivers in the world, in the best race cars in the world, strap on their spurs and engage in wheeled combat. It is supposed to be fierce, competitive, hard and engaging. And that's what the fans expect and pays for. To go to a race and learn that the outcome is pre-arrainged, and that there is very little hardcore competition on the track is to learn you have been ripped off.
And that's something the FIA still remembers, but many arrogant teams have not. To them, their personal pursuit of the title is more important than putting on a good show, to please the hard-working fans who pay a lot of money to spectate a competition.

[dumrick]

To them, their personal pursuit of the title is more important than putting on a good show

And thank God. F1 isn't (yet) NASCAR.