Is Alonso this fast or Räikkönen that slow?

[Kingshark]

Alonso had mistakes in 2010, but what counts is at what point in the season these mistakes were made. Early in the season mid season is always alright it can always be made up at the end.

Not at all, this is a myth. The first 10 races of the season are no less important than the last 10 races of the season. Both have a maximum of 250 points to be dished out. The final 10 races of the season merely seem more important because we perceive them as "championship deciding". Truth is, every race is championship deciding. What happens in Australia will have just as much impact on the WDC as what happens in Brazil.

For instance, take 2012. You might think that Alonso "lost" the championship in Suzuka. Well, what if Ferrari hadn't kept him out in Canada? He would have got 8 extra points, enough to overhaul Vettel for the WDC.

In 2010, all of those early mistakes by Ferrari and Alonso is the reason to why they were so much on the back foot come to Germany. They lost the WDC in races like Monaco, Silverstone, and Belgium - not in Abu Dhabi.

Every race is equally important for the WDC. Well, not this year with Abu Double, but in previous years it was.

[zeph]

Alonso had mistakes in 2010, but what counts is at what point in the season these mistakes were made. Early in the season mid season is always alright it can always be made up at the end.

What mattered was the level of performance in the last 3 - 4 races if you have a chance of winning the championship where either Ferrari or Alonso cracked. Kimi in 2007, Vettel in 2010 and 2012 are the examples which I am quoting for tanked.

I'd say Alonso certainly did not crack in 2012. The RBR's and McLarens were absolutely superior, both teams winning 7 times each. For Alonso to somehow eke out 3 victories with that wheelbarrow is nothing short of phenomenal.

In 2010 there were times when he flaked, like jumping the start in China, but even then the RBR's and McLarens were the better cars.

I agree with the sentiment that Alonso's performance has sort of cloaked just how poorly Ferrari has been doing since 2009. Raikkonen didn't all of a sudden forget how to drive fast this season, he is still bloody good, and all that blah about the car being tailored to Alonso's taste, come on.

And now we see Massa habitually on the pace with or faster than Bottas, which to me simply confirms that he was always as quick as he was in 2008, even if he has an insane amount of bad luck.

No sir, Ferrari has got some restructuring to do. It may be too late for Alonso to reap any possible future benefits, but at least it is clear that the problem lies with the organization.

I just hope it is not too late for Alonso to grab another title (or two?) with another team.

[Andres125sx]

Before and after that race, Alonso has always outscored Massa.

Sometimes with team orders and with general bad strategy for Massa it should be said.

Sorry but that´s not true

Melbourne, 2nd GP of 2010 seasson, Massa finished 3th with Alonso 4th 2 seconds behind him. How does that cope with your TOs theory?


It´s always the same Sector, at any team. Once a driver loose his WDC chances there´re team orders to maximice the other driver chances, but only once the other driver lost his. At the beginning of a seasson no team provide TOs, none. We were talking about the beginning of 2010 seasson, much before Germany where Massa was 78 points behind the leader so he had no real chances. At the beginning of the seasson the fight was fair and square (as Melbourne result proves), and Alonso outscored Massa with a car developed for Kimi´s driving style, a car wich Massa was driving for his 6th seasson

If Kimi and Alonso have completely different driving styles and need completely different car behaviour, that´s adaptability

[Andres125sx]

That is a rather bad example. The Ferrari was very good and Alonso and Massa were never closer to each others pace as in the beginning of 2010. It took 7 races until Alonso really got the hand over Massa, who just came back from his accident. So from this example I would rather say the development theory is good, but this is hard to judge.

Wait what? The first 5 races of 2010;

Bahrain: Massa better in qualifying, but Alonso passes him around the outside at Turn 1. He goes on to finish 16 seconds ahead of Massa.
Australia: Alonso out-qualifies Massa by 0.726 seconds, but spins in Turn 1. At the end of the SC on lap 4, Alonso is last and Massa is 2nd. Alonso catches Massa by the time they reach little over half race.
Malaysia: The only time they were equal on pace in the first 5 races of the season, and Alonso was driving the whole race with a damaged clutch.
China: Alonso has a drive through penalty which puts him about 20 seconds behind Massa. Fernando catches him in about 15 laps and overtakes him just before the pitlane entrance. Fernando ends up finishing 46 seconds ahead.
Spain: Alonso out-qualifies Massa by 0.650 seconds, and out-races him by 41 seconds.

Alonso was leagues ahead of Massa on raw pace right from the get-go, despite having little supposed say in the car's development.

Agree, but you got the quotes muddled, that´s not mine, actually I replied that quote in the exact same way you did

[Andres125sx]

The fact still remains that after Germany in 2010, Massa had 85 points, while Alonso had 123.

Exactly, that´s the main fact. But I think it´s more relevant how the WDC was before Germany, because that was the reason TOs were provided

Lewis hamilton 145 points
Fernando Alonso 98 -47
Felipe Massa 67 -78

So Alonso was almost two victories from the leader, what is a big difference, while Massa was more than three victories behind, with less than a half of Hamilton points.... To me it´s obvious Ferrari did the right thing


Now we can discuss if Massa went down from Germany because of TO´s or because he was still thinking on his accident, or because the stars were not aligned in his favour, but the fact still is he was free to fight against Alonso up to Germany, and not even with the spaniard driving a car not developed for his driving style, Massa was able to be a real contender

Then on next seassons, if we provide some credit to the Kimi need a different car than Alonso theory, we should think Ferrari developed the car for Alonso´s driving style so the difference was increasing even more

So Massa had his chances, as he have always had at the beginning of any seasson, but he proved to be unable to fight against Alonso, not even on first seasson with a car not developed for Alonso, so obviously once the car was developed for Alonso the difference was increasing

[Andres125sx]

You can blame ferrari for 2010

No you can´t

Germany TO´s are the reason they were fighting for the WDC at the last GP of the seasson, so it´s proved they did the right thing

but 2012 was Alonso's fault. Car was bad but good luck was on his side and he had a huge lead. He tanked in 2 crucial qualifying in the end of the season, Japan was a bad session had to take a risk at the start which ended the race. USGP was another bad qualifying from where he never recovered.

2012 Alonso´s seasson is one of the best seassons of any driver ever.

If it was anyone´s fault, it was Grosjean´s fault. Without Grosjean accident Alonso would have won that WDC with an inferior car. As simple as that

[SectorOne]

Sorry but that´s not true

Oh you bet it is. Everything from clear team orders to the weirdest strategies have hampered Massa sometimes.
Whether Massa is out of contention for the championship or not is irrelevant to your statement.

[Andres125sx]

Sorry but that´s not true

Oh you bet it is. Everything from clear team orders to the weirdest strategies have hampered Massa sometimes.
Whether Massa is out of contention for the championship or not is irrelevant to your statement.

No it´s not, and no, it´s not irrelevant either. It actually is the main factor to consider, as any team do the same, even Mclaren (2008), but you´re stating Ferrari do it even when Massa was still fighting the WDC.

I´ve provided an example to prove my point, actual fact.

May you provide some fact that proves Massa have receive TOs before falling back in the WDC?

[SectorOne]

It´s irrelevant whether or not Massa is not in the championship hunt.

Your statement: "Before and after that race, Alonso has always outscored Massa."

Then i said well it´s because sometimes Massa has been force to play second fiddle through various strategic moves that have directly hampered his race while benefited Alonso.

You mixing in whether or not Massa is in title contention is 100% irrelevant to your original statement and my response to it.
Your statement has absolutely zero to do with championship points and positions.

[Andres125sx]

Then i said well it´s because sometimes Massa has been force to play second fiddle through various strategic moves that have directly hampered his race while benefited Alonso.

And then I said that was only AFTER Alonso had outscored Massa fair and square, so if he´s scored 50-60% of Alonso´s points, then it´s irrelevant if he´s forced to let Alonso pass, he´s been outscored fair and square and only after that he´s played second fiddle

I guess he´s been out of the fight so frequently some people get the idea he´s never been allowed to fight Alonso, but as I posted, Melbourne prove that theory to be wrong, when he was able to beat Alonso, he was allowed to do it.

If he´s unable to do it more often that´s not Ferrari responsability

Your statement has absolutely zero to do with championship points and positions.

Sure, but yours not. Mine remains true even if there would have never been TOs, as there has been TOs only when the difference in points was huge, so even if Massa could have won at Germany (for example), he still would be far from Alonso WDC standing, so even so he´d have been outscored
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Anycase, are we really discussing if Alonso did outscore Massa?

[Mesteño]

Alonso confessed recently that this season was one of the best of him in terms of pure driving, that may be a reason.

[bhall II]

[...]

2012 Alonso´s seasson is one of the best seassons of any driver ever.

If it was anyone´s fault, it was Grosjean´s fault. Without Grosjean accident Alonso would have won that WDC with an inferior car. As simple as that

Don't forget Alonso took himself out of the Japanese Grand Prix that year with a hasty kamikaze move on the inside of Raikkonen (?) at the first corner. Alonso is an outstanding driver, but he's not without fault.

[Sevach]

So... Raikkonen says he made a breakthrough and now the car feels right.

Alonso is still gonna destroy him imo.

[SectorOne]

Anycase, are we really discussing if Alonso did outscore Massa?

He did, but with help sometimes.

[Andres125sx]

[...]

2012 Alonso´s seasson is one of the best seassons of any driver ever.

If it was anyone´s fault, it was Grosjean´s fault. Without Grosjean accident Alonso would have won that WDC with an inferior car. As simple as that

Don't forget Alonso took himself out of the Japanese Grand Prix that year with a hasty kamikaze move on the inside of Raikkonen (?) at the first corner. Alonso is an outstanding driver, but he's not without fault.

Obviously, but that´s what happens when you have to start a race from 7th place because of your car... How many times have you seen a driver fighting for the WDC from this grid positions?