Is Alonso this fast or Räikkönen that slow?

[Andres125sx]

Anycase, are we really discussing if Alonso did outscore Massa?

He did, but with help sometimes.

Yes Alonso needed help to beat Massa....

[bhall II]

Don't forget Alonso took himself out of the Japanese Grand Prix that year with a hasty kamikaze move on the inside of Raikkonen (?) at the first corner. Alonso is an outstanding driver, but he's not without fault.

Obviously, but that´s what happens when you have to start a race from 7th place because of your car... How many times have you seen a driver fighting for the WDC from this grid positions?

All else being equal, he would have won the Championship by three points had he finished that race in 7th.

We're probably very close in our assessment of Alonso as a driver - best of his generation, as far as I'm concerned. But, I think his status within the sport has begun to take on mythical proportions, and I don't quite think that's fair. Everything every driver has ever achieved in F1 was born on the wings of machinery capable of delivering those results, because no driver can make a car perform beyond its capabilities.

[CBeck113]

So... Raikkonen says he made a breakthrough and now the car feels right.

Alonso is still gonna destroy him imo.

Well, after the first two practice sessions it looks like a strange type of destroying to me

[Manoah2u]

no driver can make a car perform beyond its capabilities.

no, but the capacity of any driver to be able to get EVERYTHING out of the car handed to them is a completely different story and I genuinly believe somebody like Ayrton Senna was able to achieve 100% out of a car.

'any' other driver might just get 80% of the potential, whilst the team might even believe it's 100%, and be satisfied.

If the F1 field is filled with drivers that on average get 80% out of their cars, with a 'exceptional' Alonso or Hamilton that pushes 87% out of it, those 2 stand out for obvious reasons. Meaning, they have a 7% benefit over their 80% competitors.
Thus, they can have a car that is 6% slower and still beat their competitors with 1%.
Crap drivers like ericsson and chilton might be not able to get even 78% out of the car. The only reason they're there is financial reason.

Now let's go back to senna, at 100% level versus 80% competitors and you have a driver that stands out 20% next to the others. A Schumacher at his prime at perhaps 95%. Just 5% short of Senna. We'll never really know how Schumacher was compared to Senna and it doesn't really matter though.

In essence, no driver is able to perform 'beyond' their car, because that is physically impossible. However, some drivers might be mentally able to reach such an insane level of commitment, focus and skill, which makes them achieve things no other driver can. Senna, like no other, was absolutely able to achieve this.

Where does Alonso fit in here? no clue. I don't believe for a second he's close to Senna's capabilities, but that doesn't 'diminish' Alonso's strenght. He's a absolute great, and i'd say he is a 87 or 88%. perhaps even 90%.

Raikkonen? Nah, he doesn't reach Alonso's level but he has his own. I'd say 85% over a '80% rest of field'.

[Andres125sx]

Don't forget Alonso took himself out of the Japanese Grand Prix that year with a hasty kamikaze move on the inside of Raikkonen (?) at the first corner. Alonso is an outstanding driver, but he's not without fault.

Obviously, but that´s what happens when you have to start a race from 7th place because of your car... How many times have you seen a driver fighting for the WDC from this grid positions?

All else being equal, he would have won the Championship by three points had he finished that race in 7th.

We're probably very close in our assessment of Alonso as a driver - best of his generation, as far as I'm concerned. But, I think his status within the sport has begun to take on mythical proportions, and I don't quite think that's fair. Everything every driver has ever achieved in F1 was born on the wings of machinery capable of delivering those results, because no driver can make a car perform beyond its capabilities.

Agree, but if you see it accurately, the view is dissapointing. Every driver underperforms his car, from Senna to Schumacher, Alonso or whatever name you can think about. No driver can get 100% of its car capabilities for a whole seasson, not even for a whole GP. Heck, they even struggle to do a perfect lap so we could say they never get 100% of his car not even for a single lap. But we all like to see F1 drivers like some sort of super-humans, so if you realize they all are underpermorming his car, it´s pretty dissapointing.

I see it this way. The average F1 driver maybe perform at 90% of his car capabilities (percentage is an example, don´t want to start a discussion about that), while best F1 drivers ever maybe can get 93-95% of his car. None are making his car perform beyond its capabilities

Then you have car A wich is fastest and car B wich is second, if drivers of car A are average drivers who perform at 90% of its capabilities, while a driver from car B can get 95% of his car he will win (if difference between car A and car B is less than that 5%), so you could say driver B is outperforming his car. Accurately speaking it´s driver of car A who is underperforming, but since he´s on average, F1 average, that would be discrediting one of the best drivers on planet when he really doesn´t deserve it. It´s driver B meirt, not driver A fault, so I actually think saying driver B is outperforming his car is more fair, not accurate technically speaking, but more fair

[Manoah2u]

i guess we share the same though, except for the 100% achievement I'm just a Senna fan

[Andres125sx]

I´m too slow typing... Manoah2u is faster, I think I´m getting 70% of my pc while he´s getting around 85%

[Andres125sx]

i guess we share the same though, except for the 100% achievement I'm just a Senna fan

[Manoah2u]

I´m too slow typing... Manoah2u is faster, I think I´m getting 70% of my pc while he´s getting around 85%

i LOL'd hard

[Sevach]

So... Raikkonen says he made a breakthrough and now the car feels right.

Alonso is still gonna destroy him imo.

Well, after the first two practice sessions it looks like a strange type of destroying to me

Wait and see

[Vasconia]

Well, though Raikkonen has made a good progression during qualifications, he dissappears during the races, and Alonso is smashing him.

It is previously mentioned, Alonso must be the most adaptable racer and Kimi one of the least. If Kimi has a car which suits him he can be as fast as Alonso, but the Spaniard is still fast with almost any sort of car.

Lets see what happens between Sebastian and Kimi next season, it could be very interesting.

[Phil]

Where does Alonso fit in here? no clue. I don't believe for a second he's close to Senna's capabilities, but that doesn't 'diminish' Alonso's strenght. He's a absolute great, and i'd say he is a 87 or 88%. perhaps even 90%.

Raikkonen? Nah, he doesn't reach Alonso's level but he has his own. I'd say 85% over a '80% rest of field'.

Excellent points. I especially like the analogy with the percentages, which I think covers nicely why certain drivers are better than others. One thing that find highly relevant though which at times is either downplayed or ignored is a drivers "operating window". Let me explain:

Some drivers, probably like Senna, Alonso, even Hamilton, have what I would describe as a wide operating window. Give them any car, bad, good, difficult or easy to drive, and they will find ways to get good performance out of. They might not win in it, because the car performance differential might be too big compared to better cars (i.e. Hamilton in 2009, Alonso in 2008/2009), but none-the-less, they will extract a high percentage of what the car can potentially deliver.

Some other drivers seem to be more sensitive to the car they drive, but brilliant in their own ways. Vettel comes to mind. He might be struggling in this years car (though irregardless how good Ricciardo drives the 2014 RedBull, Vettel is catching up in relative pace), but boy could he drive the EBD RedBulls in the 4 season he won the WDC. And I might be one of the few who actually rates Webber quite highly despite the difficulties he endured. Another one that comes to mind is Jenson Button. He might struggle in cars he's not happy with, but give him a car that suits his driving characteristic and he will really shine. As fast as Hamilton is, even Button showed instances of extremely good pace during their 3 year partnership as team-mates at McLaren.

Raikoennen is similar I feel. He might not have the outright talent of Alonso in cars that are difficult to drive, but give him a car that suits him and I'm fairly confident the time differential between an Alonso and himself will be greatly reduced, just as we've seen the case with Button and Hamilton on a good day.

So the factor of how well a car is catered to a singular driver or how difficult it is to drive should not be underestimated. Make the cars more difficult to drive, either by matching them up on a rainy day under difficult track conditions, or give them a car that is just difficult to drive, and a driver with a wide operating window will still get a relatively high percentage out of what the car can potentially offer. Make the car easier to drive, under easy/predictable track conditions and even a driver with a relative narrow operating window will get closer to its pure potential. Simple logic really. The easier it is to drive, the more confidence you gain in driving it and in theory, the closer you will be to achieving 'absolute pace'.

[JimClarkFan]

no driver can make a car perform beyond its capabilities.

no, but the capacity of any driver to be able to get EVERYTHING out of the car handed to them is a completely different story and I genuinly believe somebody like Ayrton Senna was able to achieve 100% out of a car.

'any' other driver might just get 80% of the potential, whilst the team might even believe it's 100%, and be satisfied.

If the F1 field is filled with drivers that on average get 80% out of their cars, with a 'exceptional' Alonso or Hamilton that pushes 87% out of it, those 2 stand out for obvious reasons. Meaning, they have a 7% benefit over their 80% competitors.
Thus, they can have a car that is 6% slower and still beat their competitors with 1%.
Crap drivers like ericsson and chilton might be not able to get even 78% out of the car. The only reason they're there is financial reason.

Now let's go back to senna, at 100% level versus 80% competitors and you have a driver that stands out 20% next to the others. A Schumacher at his prime at perhaps 95%. Just 5% short of Senna. We'll never really know how Schumacher was compared to Senna and it doesn't really matter though.

In essence, no driver is able to perform 'beyond' their car, because that is physically impossible. However, some drivers might be mentally able to reach such an insane level of commitment, focus and skill, which makes them achieve things no other driver can. Senna, like no other, was absolutely able to achieve this.

Where does Alonso fit in here? no clue. I don't believe for a second he's close to Senna's capabilities, but that doesn't 'diminish' Alonso's strenght. He's a absolute great, and i'd say he is a 87 or 88%. perhaps even 90%.

Raikkonen? Nah, he doesn't reach Alonso's level but he has his own. I'd say 85% over a '80% rest of field'.

I agree that a driver cant get more than 100% out of the car.

But those %s you just posted up are complete waffle, how are you possibly calculating that, how can you possibly know what 100% of a cars performance is.

I mean you are literally just making those numbers up lol

[Phil]

I think it's clear that those numbers are just arbitrary - not with any scientific basis (as that would be impossible) - but educated guesses/(gu)estimates with the aim to illustrate his point on how drivers with varying talent can still make a difference despite the absolute limit a car imposes.

[JimClarkFan]

I think it's clear that those numbers are just arbitrary - not with any scientific basis (as that would be impossible) - but educated guesses/(gu)estimates with the aim to illustrate his point on how drivers with varying talent can still make a difference despite the absolute limit a car imposes.

They aren't even good educated guesses though.

Consider lap times, team mates are often covered by a few tenths, lets say one team mate did his lap in exactly 100 seconds and the other team mate was 1 tenth slower at 100.1 seconds. The % difference between the two in terms of lap time is 0.1% depending on how you view it.

This whole idea of extracting 80% of a cars performance if a very vague one. I don't really know what it means, it requires us to know what 100% of car performance is for a start, something we just don't know.

Why not just consider lap times between team mates. Much easier and simpler, and more accurate. I realise this is just an analogy but the notion that any driver on the grid is even 5% better than another driver is absurd.