Is team order tactics such as McLarens acceptable in 2007?

[DaveKillens]

If Bernie thinks that Mclaren should be banned because of what "happened" in Monaco than Ferrari should have been shot, hanged, slaughtered, burned and chopped for what they've been doing from 1996 to 2006.

I agree fully. The punishment should match the crime. McLaren at Monaco was just ordering drivers to hold station, while Ferrari at Austria (IMO) was a personal affront and a travesty of "motor racing".
Actually, Ferrari should have been forced to reimburse all the race fans for the event. As well Ferrari should have lost all points for their manufacturer's title, and each driver being disqualified for the race.

[Torso]

Well now the FIA says team orders such as pre-arranged results and orders not to race for positions are ok.

This is sad news for the future and the rest of this season.

Interestingy when Ferrari did it in Austria 2002 then it was actually legal, but still they got fined...but not for the team order at the very end of the race but actually for mocking up the price-seremony. Many here seems to mix up these things .

As we remember all the McLaren fans where the main critics of Ferrari`s team order at Austria 2002..
Yet when team orders are banned by the FIA...then it`s all McLaren fans showing their incredible amount of hypocricy coming out MASSIVE DEFENSE of the pre-arranged result we just vitnessed in Monaco.

U Mc`Fans sure are a "special" breed...

It`s ok NOT to have racing between team mates..as long as it`s McLaren not racing...

Now in the end this really only hurts Fernando Alonso...once again a FIA pre-arranged championship?

All in all a F1 season is once again ridiculed.

[mahesh248]

Ferrari should int have done that was unsporting , and an insult to efforts to the second driver

[Torso]

Ferrari should int have done that was unsporting , and an insult to efforts to the second driver

Well so was the team orders by McLaren at Jerez 1997 and Australia 1998. Very unfair to David Coulthard.

But they where not punished for it, cause it was legal, as legal as Ferrari`s open team order at the end of the Austrian GP of 2002. AND FERRARI WAS NEVER PUNISHED FOR IT CAUSE IT WAS LEGAL. Had it been illigal...Ferrari would not have done it/played that card for the championship.

Ferrari was fined for the behaviour of MS and RB on the podium when MS pushed RB up to the top as to symbolize his disagreement with the team order! For this conduct Ferrari was fined $ 1 million dollars!

Team orders were always a part of the game of f1. And still is. Only FIA ridicules the sort by making a rule banning team orders but so far has closed their eyes to any team useing team orders/pre-arranged strategies to support one driver over the other.

The FIA must remove the ban or stop the show! OR POLICE THE RULE!!

McLaren always played the no1 and no 2 prefential treatment policy as long as I can remember back to the days of Prost and Senna.

Strangely I was expecting McLaren to accept Hamilton as a full WDC candidate now that he out-paced and beat Alonso over and over again DESPITE Alonso having the no 1 strategic pre-arranged advantages for qualifying and race!

WHat more does Hamilton have to do to get a fair shot?

In Ferrari the fastest driver over time would get the weight of support in tactics. In McLaren it`s obviously different perspectives to it...

Anyway in my opinion Alonso does not deserve it for what he done so far this season compared to Hamilton.

[mahesh248]

yeah once it also happen in williams in 2003,team was trying to boost montoya's points, they asked ralf to give him way in one of the races ,but he said he could int hear their instructions hehehehe

[DaveKillens]

Such a rule as contrrolling team orders is very difficult to police in it's entirity. Drivers could be instructed how to perform under certain scenarios, code words could be used on the radio, there's lots of ways to control a driver without having to use the radio.
I believe that this tactic will continue to be practiced, just now with more circumspection. There is a way to kill this tactic, but it requires a massive change. Just make sure that each individual car has it's own primary sponsor. None may be shared.

[mx_tifoso]

Such a rule as contrrolling team orders is very difficult to police in it's entirity. Drivers could be instructed how to perform under certain scenarios, code words could be used on the radio, there's lots of ways to control a driver without having to use the radio.
I believe that this tactic will continue to be practiced, just now with more circumspection. There is a way to kill this tactic, but it requires a massive change. Just make sure that each individual car has it's own primary sponsor. None may be shared.

If that was the case I'm sure Kimi would have wanted to bring Johnny Walker over to his F2007!

At McLaren Fernando would have some Spanish sponsor and Lewis a British sponsor. I'm not sure about that working out, each team would have a lot more to think about. Definately a lot more complicated than it is now. I doubt it would be taken into account by any team.

Team orders aren't as bad as they seem, using McLaren as an example, they have invested heavily on Lewis since he was a young karter, and in Fernando they have a 2x DC, the only DC in the 2007 season! So they have to play their cards right and try to play every race into the best possible scenario, even if for now that might include Lewis not being able to fully race, or try to overtake Fernando ('07 Monaco GP).

And as with everything in life, nothing should be taken in excess. I dont agree with what Ferrari did in Austria '02, but I do a agree with a team having a #1 driver and supporting him in his quest for a DC, it just happens to be an effective method for winning Championships. Again McLaren as an example, for their '07 lineup they have two DC contenders, thats quite a dilemma, they can't outright support one and leave the other hanging in the dry, so a balance must be struck. In this case I believe that the best option is to support Fernando, Lewis is a rookie with 5 F1 races under his belt, he has a lot yet to learn and it wont (IMO) hurt him to be 2nd string during his rookie season. This would allow Lewis to continue his learning process in F1, and for Alonso's switch from Renault to McLaren to be worthy, same for McLaren/Ron Dennis; their purchase would have to provide somewhat of a profit.

* Something to think about; What would the scenario have been like at Mclaren at Monaco had Lewis been in the lead and Fernando in 2nd? Would they have radioed FA to take it easy as well Or would they have let them run free and possibly have FA take the win from LH? < Along with the possibility of a DNF had one of them had an accident with a barrier, as they almost did this weekend.

[bizadfar]

If Bernie thinks that Mclaren should be banned because of what "happened" in Monaco than Ferrari should have been shot, hanged, slaughtered, burned and chopped for what they've been doing from 1996 to 2006.

Obviously you don't understand the reason for Bernie's harsh comments.

[Rob W]

Interestingy when Ferrari did it in Austria 2002 then it was actually legal, but still they got fined...

Actually: "bringing the sport into disrepute" is a punishable offense in F1 (as in most sports). They were punished for this aspect of their actions.

The thing about the current case which I find amusing is that people who are anti what McLaren did (or didn't do) seem to hinge their emotions on the "Hamilton could have won" argument.... The reality is, even if he could have caught Alonso, and Alonso had nothing left in terms of pace (which he says he did), he might never have gotten past. Remember Coulthard being stuck behind Verstappen for half of the Monaco GP a few years back - even though his car was over a second a lap faster??

Fact of the matter is - even with no traffic and in ideal circumstances Alonso would have driven a faster race than Hamilton. His race-length pace was just too good on the day/circuit.

Rob W

[pRo]

told him to slow down... mmm? what do u call that?

Do you also consider it a team order, when the team tells someone to push it over the radio?

[Seas]

http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type ... O_ID=39434

[bizadfar]

Interestingy when Ferrari did it in Austria 2002 then it was actually legal, but still they got fined...

Actually: "bringing the sport into disrepute" is a punishable offense in F1 (as in most sports). They were punished for this aspect of their actions.

The thing about the current case which I find amusing is that people who are anti what McLaren did (or didn't do) seem to hinge their emotions on the "Hamilton could have won" argument.... The reality is, even if he could have caught Alonso, and Alonso had nothing left in terms of pace (which he says he did), he might never have gotten past. Remember Coulthard being stuck behind Verstappen for half of the Monaco GP a few years back - even though his car was over a second a lap faster??

Fact of the matter is - even with no traffic and in ideal circumstances Alonso would have driven a faster race than Hamilton. His race-length pace was just too good on the day/circuit.

Rob W

The fact is the race was turned into cruise control around the 1st stops. Imagine all the people who paid to go see a RACE, pay for cruise control.

Hamilton most likely had less time on the soft tyres, that would make extremely what would've happened few laps after the second stop. Even if the result is the same, they stole a race from us. This is why Bernie is overreacting.

[Rob W]

The fact is the race was turned into cruise control around the 1st stops. Imagine all the people who paid to go see a RACE, pay for cruise control

I love how people who go and see a race live have a great time.. love the spectacle, enjoy the view or whatever.. and then two days later find out that xx xxx happened and then suddenly change their opinion to "oh, I hated it, I want my money back..."

The entertainment aspect was not reduced by McLaren slowing down at all - it happens in almost every race in some parts by some teams. Add to that Hamilton was not going to get past Alonso in normal race circumstances.

If 'entertainment' was the only bar for a successful F1 race then Monaco would have to be scrapped as, other than the people present and a bit of nostalgia, it's pretty much always a procession from start to finish.

RW

[DaveKillens]

I love how people who go and see a race live have a great time.. love the spectacle, enjoy the view or whatever.. and then two days later find out that xx xxx happened and then suddenly change their opinion to "oh, I hated it, I want my money back..."

You have a good point there. I've spectated a lot of road races, and usually what happens is you watch the cars zoom by in glorious color and noise, and wait until they come by again, hoping to notice any change in position. You really don't get any idea of the big picture when you're spectating in person.
But TV is the medium of most, and it's quite a different experience than being there. And one of the (hopefully) advantages of TV is being made more aware of the big picture, and obviously, a pass is big news. When they don't come often and quick enough, many like me get bored.
Some people may find excitement in watching the gap between cars open and close, and can be entertained for an entire race without any passing.
But I'm an old fart who needs a lot of stimulation, and passing is fun to watch, and how I rate a race.

[modbaraban]

btw, there were 2 successful overaking manouvers that the broadcasing director failed to spot (show)...