Making F1 Driving more challenging

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Making F1 Driving more challenging

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Aesto wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:Drivers back then might not meet your ideal standard for what a professional race driver should look like, but to casually dismiss them as nothing more than out-of-shape guys is a stretch, and not really a fair assessment to make.
But what basically amounts to calling today's drivers a bunch of boring, anorexic wimps is? Especially the anorexia comment is just the type of utterly unqualified knee-jerk posting that unfortunately Ive come to expect from opinionated forum warriors. ''Someone is unusually thin? Well, they must be anorexic!'' Anorexia is an eating disorder related to self-worth and a distorted body image. What does that have to do with athletes who lose weight in order to gain a (or negate someone else's) competitive advantage? With a body-mass index over 20 (according to the numbers in the link you posted), Vergne is nowhere near that level, he isn't even underweight (and being underweight is also not a sufficient condition for anorexia).

The whole ''today's drivers would never be able to drive a race car of the 19xxs'' argument, now even perpetuated by some F1 journalists (I think it was MB who made a similar comment at Singapore), is just completely missing the point. Yes, Kvyat or Gutierrez very likely would not have the strength to wrestle around a mid 1980s turbo-powered car, but so what? What exactly is that supposed to prove? Do you think that if those kinds of cars were re-introduced these guys simply would not be able to drive in F1? Of course not. They would simply change their training regimen and gain the necessary weight and muscle in a matter of weeks. Every idiot can get heavier and stronger. Becoming thin while staying fit and resilient is much harder. The diet and exercise of modern F1 drivers is much more controlled than it used to be. Back in the day, between races, the drivers were certainly more likely to be found on a yacht or a five-star restaurant than the their team's fitness studio. Michael Schumacher was really one of the first successful F1 drivers who actually considered his job to be that of an athlete and only since then have racing drivers started to put greater emphasis on their fitness. So I actually think it's a very fair assessment to make that it would take Fangio much longer to get into the physical shape required to pilot a modern F1 driver's car than vice versa.
GitanesBlondes wrote: I consider that to be a far greater indicator of how good a racing driver is; what is their diversity level? Do they only look decent in one particular discipline, or are they fast in everything they drive? Think Mario Andretti or Juan Pablo Montoya. Or do they look good in say F1, but languish as soon as they hit the DTM or other race series?
How is that even relevant to the discussion? Or do you propose that F1 races should require the driver to hop into a different type of car every 20 laps?
GitanesBlondes wrote: P.S. today's drivers may be more professional, but they also have none of the personality that made drivers at large so fascinating to watch years ago. They are bland and dull.
Or that? What does it have to do with F1 driving (supposedly) not being challenging enough? Plus, it's also utterly biased. The only reason we think of the drivers of the past being charismatic is because we have simply forgotten all the other ones (just think of Denny Hulme, for example. He's a WDC and yet nobody EVER mentions him).

It's already been discussed at length about how the drivers starve themselves to meet the weight requirements.

I didn't bother reading the rest of your rant.

P.S. I remember Denny Hulme just fine, as do many.
Last edited by GitanesBlondes on 05 Oct 2014, 17:35, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Making F1 Driving more challenging

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Just_a_fan wrote:The point I was making, which you appear to agree with, is that you can't compare Fangio's time with today. Different times, different attitudes, just different, different, different.

Races like those in Fangio's day would be shut down today. Lots of deaths - both drivers and spectators - would see the sport killed off. Or it would be changed to, um, what we have today. Surprise, surprise. What we have to day has evolved from what they had then. Times change. F1 has changed to keep with those changing times.

It's all different because it's all changed. Live with it and move on.
The death thing is so overblown, and it's become part of the FUD campaign to neuter the sport. F1 only changed because of commercial considerations, nothing more. They didn't do it for altruistic purposes.

Yeah guys died, sh*t happens, racing is a dangerous business. Everyone knows the risks.

I love MotoGP because of the risk involved. It's pretty thrilling when you remember what it is like to watch professional racers on the edge. Check it out sometime if you don't. The Aragon GP was better than anything F1 has had to offer this year.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

Aesto
Aesto
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Re: Making F1 Driving more challenging

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GitanesBlondes wrote: It's already been discussed at length about how the drivers starve themselves to meet the weight requirements.
Are you being intentionally thick? Nobody even disputed that point.
GitanesBlondes wrote: I didn't bother reading the rest of your rant.
Theory confirmed. I guess you're more interested in fatuous trolling than a real discussion.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Making F1 Driving more challenging

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Presumably some in here enjoyed today's race for reasons other than the racing. Nice and risky and, oh, someone nearly died. All good stuff!

Anyone who watches racing because it's risky - easy to enjoy risk vicariously, eh? - is a dinosaur.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Making F1 Driving more challenging

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Aesto wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote: It's already been discussed at length about how the drivers starve themselves to meet the weight requirements.
Are you being intentionally thick? Nobody even disputed that point.
GitanesBlondes wrote: I didn't bother reading the rest of your rant.
Theory confirmed. I guess you're more interested in fatuous trolling than a real discussion.
Trust me if I was trolling, you'd know it.

I'd say something like, "It's fitting you have Nigel Mansell in your avatar, as he was one of the biggest whiners and complainers to ever sit in a F1 car. "

But I didn't now did I?

They engage in a lot of anorexic behaviors. Want me to link you to some of the symptoms, or I trust you can find it on your own? Even though you might think they are not anorexic, they meet quite a few of the definitions of it. Let me guess, you think because they never talk about it, that means they are perfectly fine, no?

I don't know if you have a need to sit there and attempt to rationalize the indefensible, because you have a burning desire to see the drivers of today raised to a stature when most have done nothing worthwhile of being remembered long term. F1 is too easy when 17 year olds are slated to start on the grid in this day and age. Wouldn't have happened years ago, because their lack of experience would very much have prevented them from being allowed to drive on a grand prix weekend.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Making F1 Driving more challenging

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Just_a_fan wrote:Presumably some in here enjoyed today's race for reasons other than the racing. Nice and risky and, oh, someone nearly died. All good stuff!

Anyone who watches racing because it's risky - easy to enjoy risk vicariously, eh? - is a dinosaur.
I didn't enjoy today's race because it was uninteresting. But keep in mind I also remember a time when there would have been no safety car on the track. Those were hardly the worst conditions I've seen F1 race in. I should send you a download link to Belgium 1989. It was unfortunate what happened to Bianchi, but that was also one of those freak occurrences...because he hit a tractor that was removing Sutil's car. If that tractor isn't there, he's fine. Also we don't know the particulars of what happened...it was double yellows, was he going to fast in that area?

So all those young people who I see at MotoGP races who admit to getting a thrill from the risk the riders take are dinosaurs?

Or what about all of the extreme sports that are sponsored by Red Bull where people are at risk? It's quite thrilling stuff to watch. You should try it some time.

I'll venture a guess that you'll try and start rationalizing everything you said. Nice generalizations, I wish the world was really as black and white as you like to believe it to be.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

Aesto
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Re: Making F1 Driving more challenging

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GitanesBlondes wrote:I'd say something like, "It's fitting you have Nigel Mansell in your avatar, as he was one of the biggest whiners and complainers to ever sit in a F1 car. "
Oh, the bitter-sweet taste of pure, unadulterated irony. That is really rich, coming from someone who indiscriminately nags about everything pertaining to modern-day F1.
GitanesBlondes wrote:They engage in a lot of anorexic behaviors. Want me to link you to some of the symptoms, or I trust you can find it on your own? Even though you might think they are not anorexic, they meet quite a few of the definitions of it.
Yet again, I never disputed the fact that they engage in behaviors which are often also found in people who are actually anorexic. However, that does not mean that these drivers are anorexic as well. These symptoms alone are only necessary, but not sufficient conditions for anorexia. Saying that F1 drivers are anorexic is like saying that Lance Armstrong was addicted to EPO. Yes, he did behave similar to someone for whom that might be the case, but he didn't do it because he had some kind of compulsory craving for the drugs, but because they gave him an advantage over his competitors.

Richard
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Re: Making F1 Driving more challenging

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OK - We're getting caught up on semantics about the difference between a strict weight loss programme and the psychological condition of anorexia nervosa. We all agree that some drivers need to follow a strict weight loss programme. :arrow: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1&t=18892

We also agree that some people prefer racing from previous decades, others enjoy the current format.

I can't see this thread going anywhere other than to repeat the above ad nauseam. We've also been here many times before with virtually identical comments. It seems any discussion about changing F1 always defaults to winding the clock back several decades to a world without the level of technical and strategy analysis we have today, without the relentless reliability we have today. Here's the previous effort, you'll be hard pressed to spot the difference with this thread. :arrow: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... ?f=1&t=153

Of course there was a lot more sex and drugs in the old days, youngsters today are so dreary - http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1&t=18855

Drivers used to be better looking too http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1&t=18988

So if you want to read more of this yearning for the past then here are some threads about the good old days in F1 when young men in their prime burnt to death or fractured their necks:

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1&t=16555
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1&t=15486
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1&t=13258
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1&t=13176
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1&t=12692

Of course this isn't complete without a mention of - David Purley http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... ilit=death

Mind you, sometimes people do acknowledge the great romantic tracks of yesteryear might not always be appropriate nowadays:
SeijaKessen wrote:For anyone who wants to see F1 run again at the Nordschleife, please go watch the video of Niki Lauda almost burning to death to be reminded of why it is a bad idea.

ps - There have been 2 F1 fatalities in the last 2 years. The first was Mark Robinson, a marshall at the Montreal GP in 2013. The second was María de Villota, who died in 2013 after an accident while testing in 2012. Also Harry Surtees died driving in an F2 race in 2009. We've also had near misses with Massa and Kubica in recent years. Also drivers do die at F1 circuits (just not in F1 cars), here's a fatality at Interlagos in 2011 - http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... f=1&t=9802

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Making F1 Driving more challenging

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Aesto wrote:
GitanesBlondes wrote:I'd say something like, "It's fitting you have Nigel Mansell in your avatar, as he was one of the biggest whiners and complainers to ever sit in a F1 car. "
Oh, the bitter-sweet taste of pure, unadulterated irony. That is really rich, coming from someone who indiscriminately nags about everything pertaining to modern-day F1.
GitanesBlondes wrote:They engage in a lot of anorexic behaviors. Want me to link you to some of the symptoms, or I trust you can find it on your own? Even though you might think they are not anorexic, they meet quite a few of the definitions of it.
Yet again, I never disputed the fact that they engage in behaviors which are often also found in people who are actually anorexic. However, that does not mean that these drivers are anorexic as well. These symptoms alone are only necessary, but not sufficient conditions for anorexia. Saying that F1 drivers are anorexic is like saying that Lance Armstrong was addicted to EPO. Yes, he did behave similar to someone for whom that might be the case, but he didn't do it because he had some kind of compulsory craving for the drugs, but because they gave him an advantage over his competitors.
I bag on modern F1 simply because I don't buy what the media and F1 at large is selling.

I've always maintained this formula is an absolute joke, and ever since the 2009 rules were introduced, it ensured that F1 would be nothing more than an engineering exercise first, and a race series a distant second. This may all be exciting to you, but a large part of F1's current woes stem from a lot of stupid ideas that were not practical. The latest round being the homologation of unproven power units before the season began, thus turning the season into nothing but a mere formality. Sure F1 is challenging on some level, and always will be, but, it pales compared to years gone.

Second bit, apples to oranges comparison that simply doesn't work.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Making F1 Driving more challenging

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Richard I wouldn't dismiss the psychological implications of what such a weight loss program does to drivers who are conditioned to think in terms that are abnormal.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

Richard
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Re: Making F1 Driving more challenging

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Yup, it seems elite athletes practise an extreme form of body modification when it comes to their diet. I know an ex-GB long distance runner who now has osteoporosis at the age of 40 thanks to the weird diet. The sad thing is that they can't shift to a normal diet now the days of competitive running are over. Any social situation with a bunch of elite athletes is disturbing thanks to the overwhelming number of pale gaunt skeletal people talking about their plans to further destroy their bodies.

The bizarre thing is that they're always complaining about injuries. That's the price of 'fitness'.

Aesto
Aesto
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Re: Making F1 Driving more challenging

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Richard wrote:OK - We're getting caught up on semantics about the difference between a strict weight loss programme and the psychological condition of anorexia nervosa.
Personally I don't think it's semantics, but okay, fair enough, I guess it's not critical to this discussion.


To get back on topic: Personally I don't think there is a viable solution. Every potential change has drawbacks and will offend just as many people as it pleases.

Re-introduce power-steering, remove or limit telemetry, make the tyres less grippy. Sure, makes F1 more challenging but people will (rightfully) consider it artificial and backwards-minded.

Crank down the aero regulations so the cars get more downforce. This will increase the G-loads and improve lap times. But it will actually make the cars easier to drive as well as overtaking nearly impossible.

Crank up the aero regulations and limit downforce even further. Obviously this makes the cars harder to driver. However, the drivers don't seem to like it, people consider it artificial and it limits laptimes, thus threatening F1's status as the #1 racing category.

Bring back normally aspirated engines. Reduces costs tremendously, but makes driving easier and might cause the manufacturers to leave the sport.

Remove or limit run-off areas, bring back more gravel-traps, increase the size of curbs. Obviously this punishes mistakes more severely, but it also makes it more dangerous. And after what happened today, this won't fly politically for at least a year.

Reduce the use of Safety Cars and Red Flags during rain. - Dito.

Bring back the durable high-performance tyres of the pre-Pirelli era. Means that drivers will have to push throughout the entire race again. However, it might also turn races back into boring processions.

Refueling. Same.

Etc.

Turns out we can't have our cake and eat it too. Someone's always going to be unhappy.

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strad
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Re: Making F1 Driving more challenging

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To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: Making F1 Driving more challenging

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After what just happened.......is this even a point of discussion?
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

trinidefender
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Re: Making F1 Driving more challenging

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Just my thought. Even though road car manufacturers are all going the way of automated manual and double clutch gearboxes, - a large part of me just wants the original manual box back. Re-introduces driver finesse back into the game and I think will make the old school drivers who needed a delicate touch to drive the old school cars more competitive as the young and wilder drivers.
- Remove or limit the power steering assistance hydraulic pressure if the steering loads are really to high for drivers. Again helps distinguish the best drivers being able to be able to handle a car while at the same time delicate enough, not to mess it up.
- Remove --- lights and aural tones. Again distinguishes the great from the good as far as drivers knowing their car.
- bring back more in season testing as we all know that these things intended to reduce teams budgets do no such thing. All it does is force the rich teams to spend money elsewhere and the poor teams end up with very little testing and not enough money to update their wind tunnels and driver simulator computers etc. I.e. To me it seems poor teams lose out even more.

Basically leave more up to the driver and let him drive his race. It distinguishes the good from If you want to complain about driver workload then reduce or limit things like the number of diff setting positions and things like that. Leave the setup of the car to the engineers/mechanics and leave the driving to the drivers.

It will create more situations where low budget teams with interesting race strategies will shock the pack by having the perfect setup for the day and the driver will, crucially, not be making mistakes. It will bring back the days where even if the car isn't the best in the world, if it is set up right for the track and conditions, it can prove to be fast. It will basically have smaller, smarter and more flexible teams to be more competitive on lower budgets.

Today's breed of drivers with all the information they have are generally only able to overtake if at least one of two factors are present. 1. They have a better car or 2. The driver in front makes a mistake. As I've already shown, if you leave more of the actual driving up to the driver then he is more likely to make a mistake. More mistakes, the more overtaking and the more interesting races.