F1 Performance: is it the car, is it the driver?

[SectorOne]

I remember that Kimi in F60 was sometimes faster than what simulations showed.

Just shows how unrealistic the simulations was.

[PlatinumZealot]

Oh come on people... No driver can break the laws of nature. It is physically impossible for a driver to go beyond what the car can do.

How does one know what the car can do? What is the limit? You probably see Vettel in his RB6, and be thinking, wow he is on the limit! all the Telemetry and simulator is confirming that Yes! his is on the mechanical DESIGN limits. But then comes another driver, driver X who can drive the car even above this!

The key is that the car is a system of systems. The larger system will cease to work if one of the smaller systems has broken.
Can you take a corner faster by going beyond the limit of brakes? Yes!
Can you take a corner faster by going beyond the grip limit of the tyres? Yes!
Can a driver somehow input steering by feel and intuition better than a computer can in real time conditions? yes!
Can you take a corner faster by going beyond the limit of the track? Yes!

So In my mind a driver can drive beyond the physical limit... but maybe not for a long time.

[FoxHound]

PlatinumZealot.

Do you agree cars are bound to the laws of physics?
If you do not, then I question your participation here.

[SectorOne]

Oh come on people... No driver can break the laws of nature. It is physically impossible for a driver to go beyond what the car can do.

How does one know what the car can do? What is the limit? You probably see Vettel in his RB6, and be thinking, wow he is on the limit! all the Telemetry and simulator is confirming that Yes! his is on the mechanical DESIGN limits. But then comes another driver, driver X who can drive the car even above this!

The key is that the car is a system of systems. The larger system will cease to work if one of the smaller systems has broken.
Can you take a corner faster by going beyond the limit of brakes? Yes!
Can you take a corner faster by going beyond the grip limit of the tyres? Yes!
Can a driver somehow input steering by feel and intuition better than a computer can in real time conditions? yes!
Can you take a corner faster by going beyond the limit of the track? Yes!

So In my mind a driver can drive beyond the physical limit... but maybe not for a long time.

Again, drivers can not break the laws of nature. If a driver can do it, the car OBVIOUSLY can do it too.

[Andres125sx]

Oh come on people... No driver can break the laws of nature. It is physically impossible for a driver to go beyond what the car can do.

How does one know what the car can do? What is the limit? You probably see Vettel in his RB6, and be thinking, wow he is on the limit! all the Telemetry and simulator is confirming that Yes! his is on the mechanical DESIGN limits. But then comes another driver, driver X who can drive the car even above this!

The key is that the car is a system of systems. The larger system will cease to work if one of the smaller systems has broken.
Can you take a corner faster by going beyond the limit of brakes? Yes!
Can you take a corner faster by going beyond the grip limit of the tyres? Yes!
Can a driver somehow input steering by feel and intuition better than a computer can in real time conditions? yes!
Can you take a corner faster by going beyond the limit of the track? Yes!

So In my mind a driver can drive beyond the physical limit... but maybe not for a long time.

You´re confusing what engineers think the limit is, with the real limit

Can you take a corner faster by going beyond the limit of brakes? Yes!

No!

How can you go beyond the limit of brakes? The limit is the max amount of braking force, so any braking force they apply, is within the limits

Can you take a corner faster by going beyond the grip limit of the tyres? Yes!

No!

If going beyond the grip limit of tires, you´re understeering or oversteering, wich means you lose the line and speed, so you´re slower than if keeping within the limits

Can a driver somehow input steering by feel and intuition better than a computer can in real time conditions? yes!.

Again, you´re confusing the limits simulator stablish, with real limit. Simulators are not god, they´re programmed by humans so if data is not 100% accurate (car setup, track conditions, rubber on track, track temp....) simulator limit is not the real one so they´re not going beyond limit, only beyond limit predicted by simulator, wich obviously is wrong.

Can you take a corner faster by going beyond the limit of the track? Yes!

And then FIA will void that lap, or impose a penalti, so no, you actually ruined that lap/race

[PlatinumZealot]

Nothing can break the laws of physics obviously. We are not talking about breaking the laws of physics here. Physical limits of the car, when exceeded does not mean you you wont go around the track faster.
Think about it.. There are only a few systems on the car that can be pushed by the driver... And even when those systems are pushed close to their limits the driver may actually go around the track slower! So who says going over the limit cannot give you a faster result in lap time? It is all dependent on a multitude of factors. Going over a limit does not mean that something will break. A limit is an abstract restriction created by man! Can a driver go over it? In my opinion. Yes.

[FoxHound]

A limit is a limitation of the maximum a car can achieve.
Go over this limit, and you are no longer able to attain the maximum the car can achieve.

Do you agree?

[hollus]

Nothing can break the laws of physics obviously. We are not talking about breaking the laws of physics here

A limit is an abstract restriction created by man!

You are using a definition of "the limit" different to everyone else's in this thread. Obviously we are all agreeing and discussing over semantics.

[PlatinumZealot]

Nothing can break the laws of physics obviously. We are not talking about breaking the laws of physics here

A limit is an abstract restriction created by man!

You are using a definition of "the limit" different to everyone else's in this thread. Obviously we are all agreeing and discussing over semantics.

Yes. I am using a different definition. You guys are basically saying the car and driver cannot break the laws of physics... I agree.

[marcush.]

the limit is the limit is the limit that´s what I heard over and over again ..but some guys make you wonder... all the simulations are based on assumptions -simplifications and therfore do not represent every aspect of potential.
A calculation is highly dependant on taking everything of importance into account-But then look at the differences (percentagevise) and you soon have to realise all your variables will easily knock out your calculations out of any proportion .
In other words : get two variables wrong in different directions you may or may have good correlation and suddenly you may have bad correlation.

As with drivers apparently driving beyound limits -this is complete nonsense- what they do is applying a different technique and lean on something that´s called talent to drive around or better use special traits of the car ,conditions and track to their advantage.It could well be they cannot even explain how they do it .. nor could anyone duplicate what they do.If you took the time to analyse the happenings you may well be able to programme it into a simulation but honestly I don´t think any of the available software is doing this.

I´m still amazed how people involved in racing ignore the human factor again and again .Every third word in John Watsons commentary in his eurosport days was :confidence ...I think this is the point .People on top of their game inspire those around them to deliver the very best .No coincidence there that Webbers fortunes translated to Sebs side of the pits this year..No wonder an alonso in doubts over his future does not inspire his boys to deliver the very best and presto suddenly the car breaks down....everything can be broken down to human factors .There is always a reason for things going wrong and there are reasons for things going your ways ..rarely you get it handed out on a plate...

[Andres125sx]

Yes. I am using a different definition.

Maybe if you explain what do you understand with limit....

[J.A.W.]

Such post modernism - is poisonous nonsense - like something from a surreal dream, or 'Alice In Wonderland'..

[Tim.Wright]

If you want to define limits its best to look at the tyres. At a certain condition of slip, it stops giving more force. The driver's job is to stay near that peak as much as possible.


The interesting parts concerning the driver are:

• Concerning the front axle, at the peak the slope goes to zero so steering sensitivity and general response also go to zero which makes it very difficult for a driver to make corrections mid turn because the car stops responding in yaw.
• Almost without exception, cars are setup with a degree of steady state understeer so that at the limit the rear axle is not at the peak but somewhat below it. While this is throwing away grip, its simply not possible for a human driver to control a car where both the front and rear axles are saturated. In fact they start complaining of instabilities even before you reach the rear axle peak and your cornering stiffness goes to zero.

This is why I laugh when I hear people saying driver X drives a car beyond its limit. The truth is that car's are deliberately setup below their optimum in terms of grip potential so that the driver's are able to control them.

[turbof1]

PZ, while I like your romantic and heroic point of view, the car will never go faster then physically able to.

You make a somewhat good point by sayIng that exceeding grip levels you could go faster. But only in a few particular instances. Hamilton's 2012 pole lap in Australia was one of those: Hamilton very conciously let the back of his car step out a small bit in turn 11, perfectly lining up his car for turn 12, with the result of carrying more speed through the corner.

However, exceeding the brake limit is a no go. A driver can push as close to the limit as he can, but not further. Apex braking for instance comes close to it. And you are already loosing time with that compared to braking normal.

A driver might be able to drive a car faster then calculated, provided the initial calculations were wrong.

@Tim: very true. For instance Kimi is throwing in additional ballast to have a steering feel more suites for his needs. The extra ballast however is impeding max car performance.

[Jersey Tom]

Something that's been touched on here but probably worth reiterating... the engineers do not know what the exact absolute performance limit of the car is. Simulations will not tell you exactly what the fastest theoretical pole time is, or what your driver's will be. If a driver winds up going faster than your simulation shows - doesn't mean that the driver has magic to go beyond the limit of the car - means your simulation isn't 100% indicative of reality.

Most importantly - that's fine. It's naive to think you can achieve that, and a fool's errand to try to make the end-all-be-all ultimate simulation. You use different tools for different jobs.

In any event clearly performance is part car, part driver. Car is a dynamic system and a driver is a human, on-board controller. Some combinations pair better than others. Don't get lost thinking about Driver A can [implied: always] extract 90% out of a car whereas Driver B can extract 85%. Driver A might extra 90% out of Car X but 95% out of Car Y.

Car/setup and driver are a pairing.