F1 on the ropes... and I don't even care.

[Vettel Maggot]

I takes two to tango. Why did Mosley get away with that in full broad daylight? Why does FIFA get away with the same (that process is well documented for the German World Cup by Andrew Jennings BTW)? Where were the teams while the FIA was signing that off, do you think they were unaware? No, they all knew that was the best solution, as they all owed markers to Bernie one way or another, otherwise it would have gone to bid. Welcome to the world.

Please read this article, it will explain why exactly he got away with it.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/mo ... elt-in-f1/

Biggest reason he got away with it was because the world did not actually know the rights were up for bidding. He dressed it up as it being the only offer on the table...and well if you haven't really tendered the rights out on the open market, of course it would be the only offer on the table. He had a very small window to get that deal done with Bernie being the beneficiary of the deal.

Saying the teams knew it was the best solution is complete rubbish, and is not remotely close to being true.

That is a fantastic article.

[strad]

nothing new there

[Ciro Pabón]

nothing new there

Nothing new for you, because you know, you were there.

Apparently, if we judge for the "two to tango", the "stories are legion" or the "law against making 1 million" comments, there are posts that support the idea that nothing happened, nothing happens and nothing will happen.

It's just the way the world "works" by itself, as a non-entitity, "it", depersonalized, thus there is no one to blame, and if there were, it would be all OUR fault, collectively, or if it's not all of us, then those speaking up are commies


I wonder why despicable people make such effort to change history. I guess that's what makes them despicable.

[mx_tifoso]

This weekend I finally had a GP at a reasonable time and I had all of the time in the world to watch it, yet I didn't. The sound, the cars, the venues, the tires, the "power units", it felt empty. I used to practically live for F1! I used to crave all of the tiniest developments and , something I can't imagine anymore, especially getting up at dawn to watch hear the engines roar (before the vacuum's took over...) to life.

I've been reading some special edition F1 magazines from the past (up to 2008) and it was sad that we didn't appreciate those times more, or at least I didn't.

And if anything, I really miss being an active member of this forum!

/emotionalrant

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, perhaps a more detached approach to sports is in order...

Today is a holiday in Colombia, I will try to explain that, I have the time.

Look, I've been posting here for almost a decade because I find it tremendously funny.

You cannot imagine the good times I have writing in this forum and how many times I find myself at ungodly hours chuckling in joy after rereading the barbarities I have wrote.

That freedom of expression comes, in good part, from the work of Steven and the mods, that are much more relaxed than the majority of their peers and, believe me, I know.

And that's perhaps a lesson: they do care, but they do not stress themselves. Big difference.


I find, one day yes and another day also yes, very moving responses from the people in the forum, most of them expressing that they find sincerity refreshing and good humour energizing, real human beings thanking my stupid posts for all kinds of good deeds.

Don't get me wrong: it's not about finding "company" in a "lonely world", á lá street gang, as most anthropologists would want you to believe.

I'm not lonely and I have my hands filled with my kids, my work, my search for love and my own sense of destiny, which resides mostly in maps and poetry.

It's just that when I find a complex subject, as F1 is, you find involved in it people that is living in a part of their living cycle that is not common. By that people I mean "you", the guy that might be reading.

Frankly, to me, they are the best humankind have: people that looks for truth and marvel in this world.

What more could you expect from a spectacle based on people running around in circles?

If we don't have this, I wonder what we have. That's why, after all, we expect in tranquility what might come from the last round of "crisis". It will be enlightening, mx (unless, you, like strad, old fox, are already enlightened, ehem).

Perhaps this recent Rolling Stone article can help, mx... because we miss you, vato.

Being Bill Murray

[xpensive]

The pallbearers;

[SidSidney]

I takes two to tango. Why did Mosley get away with that in full broad daylight? Why does FIFA get away with the same (that process is well documented for the German World Cup by Andrew Jennings BTW)? Where were the teams while the FIA was signing that off, do you think they were unaware? No, they all knew that was the best solution, as they all owed markers to Bernie one way or another, otherwise it would have gone to bid. Welcome to the world.

Please read this article, it will explain why exactly he got away with it.

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/mo ... elt-in-f1/

Biggest reason he got away with it was because the world did not actually know the rights were up for bidding. He dressed it up as it being the only offer on the table...and well if you haven't really tendered the rights out on the open market, of course it would be the only offer on the table. He had a very small window to get that deal done with Bernie being the beneficiary of the deal.

Saying the teams knew it was the best solution is complete rubbish, and is not remotely close to being true.

I know Mark Hughes, I've known him since he joined Autosport in the 1990s. He's a nice guy. He hints at why it happened in that article but can't say what he is thinking.

You'll notice Max put it before the WMSC? Ever looked at the list of members on the WMSC? At least two teams knew the rights were available directly from that meeting, one of them being Ferrari, who are MWSC members by right. As is one B. Ecclestone. As is practically everybody who ever owed BE a favor. So they knew. And did nothing about it.

Here's the real question: why would the WMSC invite an outside company to pay large fees into FIA coffers, that could, over a much longer period of time, be legitimately re-directed from the accounts of the commercial rights holder to pay consulting fees to a wide range of experts in various countries down the line?

I fully understand your point that if the FIA had got the money the sport would have been better off. My counterpoint is that nobody who runs the sport really cares. The dynastic teams have a lock on it, everybody is getting fed, most of them owe Bernie some kind of favor, so why upset the banquet by bringing in some 3rd party with compliance departments and the like?

It's the same reason ISC got the rights to the FIFA World Cup. It's the same reason the Olympics go to the cities who influence the voters in the right way. If you want to see how FIFA did it, versus IMG, who wanted to bid for the WC2002, send me a PM.

[xpensive]

Where all the money went, the image is just so bizarre, a used bikes peddler with his croatioan trophy-wife?

[xpensive]

I'd like to know his tailor.

[MOWOG]

Bernie: We have known each other many years, but this is the first time you've come to me for counsel or for help. I can't remember the last time you invited me to your house for a cup of coffee, even though my wife is godmother to your only child. But let's be frank here. You never wanted my friendship. And you feared to be in my debt.


Todt: I didn't want to get into trouble.

Bernie: I understand. You found paradise in Formula One. You had a good trade, you made a good living. The police protected you and there were courts of law. So you didn't need a friend like me. Now you come and say "Bernie, give me justice." But you don't ask with respect. You don't offer friendship. You don't even think to call me "Mr. Ecclestone." You come into my house on the day my daughter is to be married and you ask me to do extortion - for money.


Todt: I ask you for justice.

Bernie: That is not justice. Your team is alive.

Todt: Let them suffer then as we have suffered.

[Bernie is silent]

Todt: How much shall I pay you?

[Bernie turns away dismissively, but Todt stays on]

Bernie: Todt, Todt.....what have I ever done to make you treat me so disrespectfully? If you'd come to me in friendship, this scum who ruined your team would be suffering this very day. And if by some chance an honest man like yourself made enemies they would become my enemies. And then, they would fear you.

Todt: Be my friend... Mr. Ecclestone.

[Bernie at first shrugs, but upon hearing the title he lifts his hand, and a humbled Todt kisses the ring on it]

Bernie: Good.

[He places his hand around Todt in a paternal gesture]

Bernie: Some day, and that day may never come, I will call upon you to do a service for me. But until that day, consider this justice a gift on my daughter's wedding day.

[a gratified Todt offers his thanks and leaves]

Bernie: [to Max Mosely] Give this job to Brawn. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. I mean, we're not murderers, in spite of what this undertaker thinks...


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The above is a fictionalized account of a meeting that may or may not have ever happened.

[SidSidney]

The above is a fictionalized account of a meeting that may or may not have ever happened.

Very good!

It reminds me of a story I heard about a breakaway F3000 idea back in the 1990s, when you had Madgewick, SuperNova, DAMS and Il Barone Rampante, back when Christian Horner was still driving an F3 car for Elizabeth the Chef.

Several F3K teams bosses were unhappy about prize money, not being on the F1 support card etc. etc. and wanted to create a series outside the remit of someone we will call AD. It was all very secret, airport meetings and so on.

Then came the Silverstone round and a scheduled meeting with the series organizers. AD was there.

At the meeting, AD opened by saying he had heard rumours that a new series was being started, and while he always welcomed healthy competition, he assumed nobody currently competing in the officially sanctioned FIA series was involved in or supporting such an unauthorized breakaway, as it would obviously be a serious breach of trust, as well as being against FIA Sporting Regulations, which could lead to a permanent ban from all forms of motorsport. But if they were any such person in the room, he went on, it would be appropriate for those persons to leave the room before the meeting started, to avoid any unwarranted misrepresentation of interests or potentially fraudulent claiming of prize monies.

Nobody moved a muscle. AD paused, then said, "Excellent, so we all understand each other. Let's continue with the agenda of the official FIA F3000 series."

At least that's how I heard it. Sounds authentic.

And that is how the game is played when you own the pitch.

[Ciro Pabón]

I think we are being a bit dramatic.

Simple: back in the times radio was the important media for sports.

Ecclestone knew that TV was going to be more important.

It could come as a shock, but nobody, I mean, nobody could imagine that TV could be used to transmit racing.

Nobody could imagine that cars could carry TV cameras.

It was hard enough to fix on them compact film cameras that needed no external power source!


When the trend toward televised sports started, Ecclestone was one of the first that realized the trend and bet on it. He bet all he had, btw.

Nowadays most people, Bernie included, thinks that the money is still on TV.

I disagree. I have no idea how sports are going to be broadcast in the future and nor do you.

That's the source of the problem... besides greed (Ecclestone), fear (teams) and brownnose-ing (Mosley, FIA): we ignore the future, we have no idea of the shape of things to come.

Frankly, to think that all people that fails is evil it's not always correct.

Why would you blame failures on evilness when stupidity suffices? (if you're a Mod you understand that pretty quickly).

C'mon, it's obvious he's quite idiotic, stop droning about how bad Ecclestone is


I say, no more mosquito killing, let's drain the swamp. By that I mean that is the money, stupid.

As people say, money is like sh*t: if you put it all in one place, it stinks. If you spread it around, it's called fertilizer. If CVC continues the stranglehold on cash, they're going to run out of it.

[GitanesBlondes]

I know Mark Hughes, I've known him since he joined Autosport in the 1990s. He's a nice guy. He hints at why it happened in that article but can't say what he is thinking.

You'll notice Max put it before the WMSC? Ever looked at the list of members on the WMSC? At least two teams knew the rights were available directly from that meeting, one of them being Ferrari, who are MWSC members by right. As is one B. Ecclestone. As is practically everybody who ever owed BE a favor. So they knew. And did nothing about it.

Here's the real question: why would the WMSC invite an outside company to pay large fees into FIA coffers, that could, over a much longer period of time, be legitimately re-directed from the accounts of the commercial rights holder to pay consulting fees to a wide range of experts in various countries down the line?

I fully understand your point that if the FIA had got the money the sport would have been better off. My counterpoint is that nobody who runs the sport really cares. The dynastic teams have a lock on it, everybody is getting fed, most of them owe Bernie some kind of favor, so why upset the banquet by bringing in some 3rd party with compliance departments and the like?

It's the same reason ISC got the rights to the FIFA World Cup. It's the same reason the Olympics go to the cities who influence the voters in the right way. If you want to see how FIFA did it, versus IMG, who wanted to bid for the WC2002, send me a PM.

Sid, Mark also explicitly mentions that at the time of the meeting, it would have taken the teams till September at the earliest to put together an offer to match what Ecclestone was holding in front of of them at that particular moment. Remember, in 2000, F1 on some level wasn't too different from what we had been accustomed to up till that point. Michael and Ferrari had not even won that first driver's championship since Jody in '79. Mika Hakkinen and McLaren was still very much the combination to beat.

It's not unreasonable to see the guys at the WMSC to miscalculate how much those commercial rights were worth, and it's also equally not unreasonable to have seen Mosley use his lawyer background to obfuscate, and mislead everyone on precisely how much those rights were actually worth. If you listen to many Mosley interviews, his method of justifying anything he did revolved around taking a more paternal approach, coupled with a congeniality in his vocal inflection that gives off the appearance that he has rationally approached whatever his decision/recommendation of the moment was. That's why even to this day, he continues spinning his tales about how he was the only man who was capable of saving F1 from itself. If you listen to him, he paints a picture of F1 as a place prior to his ascendancy to the throne, as lacking in direction, rules, safety, and order...and it was up to him to save the day. He and Bernie worked hard to pull the rug out from underneath Balestre in '91 by presenting Max as a sensible guy who would would be nowhere near as impetuous as his predecessor was. That of course turned out to be far from the truth, but he used his aura of rationality to do a lot of dirty crap.

Bernie's method of governing has always been to create division among all of the teams to keep them from ever aligning as one collective group as that would have meant the end for him. He exploited every last difference of opinion they had, and promised various little things to teams to buy their allegiance. Frank Williams is the great example as he stuck by Bernie when he should not have done so. That's why Williams F1 turned into a joke over the last decade, 2014 excluded.

I'm well aware of the FIFA rigging under Blatter. However, has the quality of football play suffered in the same manner as F1's quality? Please don't mistake that as my excusing what has gone on in FIFA under Blatter, because he is as big of a crook as any. F1 has been run into the ground from a quality perspective because everything that was done, and continues to be done in favor of trying to attract the sort of fans who demand artificial aids to "spice" up the racing. The more those commercial rights increased in value, the worse the on-track product became. 2012 was the tipping point as Ecclestone was trying desperately to get that Singapore IPO flotation in place as that has always been his end goal. It never happened thankfully.

At the end of the day Mosley and Ecclestone are the two men responsible for why there are so many problems with the sport.

[Richard]

The thing that stuns me is teh FIA agreeing to sell the rights for 100 years, for a price/earnings ratio of 1.5. You have to admire Moseley and Ecclestone for having the bravado to get away with that.

These perverse decisions often happen with these governing bodies in ivory towers. It's not the administrators' money so they have no compulsion to look after it, unlike public organisations they don't get booted out if they fall out of favour and they don't have to worry about making a profit in the face of competition.

Vijay Mallya came up with a great line in the TP press conference in Austin. Addressing Toto Wolff he said "Its easy to come out with those arguments if you're cashing someone's cheque, it's a completely different situation when you are the one writing the cheque". That's F1 in a nutshell, everyone is cashing Bernie's cheques.

ps - The irony is that Ecclestone and Moseley came to prominence when they led the FOCA demand for more equitable distribution of cash to teams - does that sound familiar? That resulted in the first Concorde agreement in 1981 giving TV rights to Ecclestone.

[Vettel Maggot]

I remember distinctly watching the depressingly boring Russian Grand Prix thinking to myself 'Why on Earth would any Government want to pay such big money for F1 anymore?' The show ain't what it used to be, that is for sure. It has lost 'something'

This video has that 'something' - The track is packed full of people, there are so many more grandstands and corporate boxes in this video than there are today. The cars look spectacular and sound spectacular.



Here is a clip of the 2 McLarens going for it in quali:



Again it illustrates how many people used to cram into Albert Park. That was before Webber, Ricciardo, they were just there to see 'the show', which has now sadly turned into a bit of a joke.

I know it is easy to look back on the past and think how wonderful it was, there were some shockingly boring races back then too, but at least it was a pleasure to experience the cars in person regardless of what was going on in the race. I personally would go to the track just to 'feel' the cars go past. You KNEW that F1 was in Melbourne as soon as FP1 started on Friday morning. The distant sound bouncing off the office tower in the city was like a siren trying to lure you into the track! Now they have lost that side of it, I feel F1 needs to make up for that with great racing week in week out otherwise the non hardcore fans will lose interest.

I am rambling I will stop, I am just frustrated that something I love is slowly dying.