Is racing elitist? Can it be socialized?

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Is racing elitist? Can it be socialized?

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Just a few questions to stir the beehive... :)

1. Do you know any public racetrack? How does it work (if it exists)?
2. Do you know any public program or school program to teach how to race?
3. Do you know any program to donate old race karts, like they do with computers, to less wealthy, young people?
4. Which is the "cheapest overall" kart category that is FIA sanctioned?
5. Do you know any program that uses volunteers (retired drivers or whatever) to teach how to race?

You could call it "socialist racing"... :) I've been upset all my life at the kind of "sport" racing is: apparently, for the rich.

I'm trying to develop a popular program in Colombia to teach young people to race, specially poor and middle class people. I don't know how to call it: A million good drivers?

I imagine:

- a public track in major cities
- a pool of public karts subsidized somehow (at least in part) by car manufacturers
- a voluntary teaching rooster
- a certification program that includes a regular license in the end as part of the non-mandatory sports activities you can learn at school
- some sort of bonuses or incentives for public transportation drivers that complete the program when they look for a job
- an impulse to "only in the track" amateur racing
- a strong support for "Make our roads safe" FIA campaign

Any help is welcome, specially outlandish ideas (I think this is your specialty) and criticisms.

I intend to make a document and send it to my beloved Ministry of Transportation and in the end, who knows, maybe the FIA campaign. All figures point to too many crashes caused by a little crazy young drivers and driver lack of expertise as cause of accidents. I'll post it in this thread in a couple of weeks, using the ideas you could have.

Formula One Stars Line Up For Make Roads Safe
Image
Is this a "really good idea" or what? ;)
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 18 Jun 2007, 23:02, edited 2 times in total.
Ciro

G-Rock
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Sounds like fun but how will this socialist racing help ones country socio-economic climate?
You'll will just end up with million people on racer welfare who are so hung up on thier racing dream that they won't be willing to work a normal job.
My advice would be, if you can't afford to race, play soccer. If you really want to race, you'll find the means to do so without the help of your government.
Once you get the government involved, everything gets screwed up.
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Ciro Pabón
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Wow, that was fast, G-Rock... precisely what I try to follow is FIFA path to promote soccer: public soccer fields and school fields are as common as coffe for breakfast. And you don't die if someone plays soccer badly...

Besides, I don't think that government involvement screw things up, all the contrary: without government we wouldn't have education... but that's another point.

I included the world "socialist" on purpose, just to see the reaction of right-wingers. I am talking about the "Big Problem" of racing: money. This gives us generation after generation of uneducated drivers, unable to avoid an accident after a less than thorough 30 hours or whatever driving course, people that kill other people every day, not because they're evil, but because they simply don't know better. It's analfabetism on a huge scale, on an activity that kills people and destroy the lifes of others.

If this makes you more comfortable, let's talk about an ONG, or government and private enterprise working together, like the high school system, will ya? :) Where did you learn to play soccer: at a private school?

About the "professionals without jobs", I'm talking of racing as another elective sport at school... I guess nobody thinks that people playing basketball will create a huge base of unemployed NBA players... :) On the contrary, without high school players, NBA could well not exist. Look at the figures for racing attendance, my friend, and think how many "weekend racers" are in the stands: most fans are only "TV fans". That's NOT the way to promote a sport among young people.

After all, the "Make Roads Safer Campaign" is not private, but an UN effort, as part of the World Health Organization effort to diminish young people death rates. Life is sacred, and ENRON doesn't see it like that. As you point out, the ENROnish view of racing is: money is sacred (me and my big mouth... this is going to become a tread on wealth). All right, bring it in...

Last conflicting point: left to the car manufacturers inititiative, we "only" get safer cars, but no safer drivers. Statistics DON'T point to cars failing, but drivers making terrible (and many times, caused by ignorance) errors. There is also the problem of unsafe roads, but I won't go into it... yet.
Ciro

segedunum
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That's a different post, and it should give us all food for thought.

I live in Britain, which by no means is an underprivileged country, and it's the racing capital of the world really if you want to get started. However, in terms of karting, getting into car racing and then into F1 it is extremely elitist. I cannot for the life of me understand why Bernie Ecclestone thinks that governments are going to stump up cash for F1 circuits when the sport is the way that it is.

I raced karts when I was younger (and I was surprisingly good, without bragging), but there has to come a realisation with you and your parents at some point that you just simply don't have the money and backing to continue otherwise you'll go bankrupt. That sounds like an excuse, but it isn't, and it has all got far, far, far worse over the years. The chances of us getting another Jim Clark in F1 now are practically zero. Yes I know people point to Lewis Hamilton and his dad, but the fact is that unless Lewis and his dad got some other form of backing to continue (i.e. McLaren) then they would have went bankrupt - despite his dad holding down three jobs. From that point of view I'm pleased for him, because as a racer Lewis did stand out.

If you've ever been to a kart racing event recently, it's just unbelievable. Many of the kids there now have parents that are forking out for two or three support people, with an incredible kart and unlimited spares to get little Tommy through karts and into F1. The guys with the real talent who you can really see, fall by the wayside much more than they used to now - and this isn't in a third-world country.

You need hundreds of thousands of pounds to get into the latter stages of karts, and to get into car racing takes even more than just money. You have to bring backers and sponsors with you that will keep the teams you're trying to join afloat.

It saddens me. Yes, money has always helped in motorsport, but it used to be much more of an individual thing, where it was up to you, your determination, will to win and the enjoyment of racing for the individuals who 'have it'. However, it's all become something different these days.

Schemes such as the one you describe would be fantastic, not just in places like Columbia, but everywhere. The emphasis should be on karting as an enjoyable sport, meeting people and new friends, enjoying the racing and the competition, allowing in-built talent to develop and less on getting untalented people with money into F1.

It really should be Bernie and F1 giving back to the grassroots of motorsport and karting. Lewis Hamilton, if he has done nothing else, has proved to me that enough truly talented racers are not making it into F1 these days, and that situation will only get worse. Hell, if you can get a talented racer into F1 that wouldn't otherwise have made it, and he can give you an extra tenth a lap, imagine how much you save in car development!

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Ciro Pabón
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Hey, thanks, segedunum... your post is really full of good ideas! All right, all right, I won't hijack my own thread. I promise I won't post anything else in this thread, at least this week, even if my head explodes...
Ciro

Carlos
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Ciro - This may be of interest.
http://www.urbanyouthracingschool.com/dc/new.html

Edit 1
The Ministry of Transportation will want to know - what is the public benefit of your program. Racing skills could profit a variety of jobs by being integrated into the different grades of driver's license - taxis, delivery lorry, ambulance, police and the general public. The insurance industry may have an interest as better driving skills result in less accidents. Go kart training could be a module of high school driving instruction. Racing skills could be an avenue to acquiring general driving skills for adverse weather conditions. FSAE gives a focus to university engineering. Go cart racing could do the same for high school students. At an earlier time in their education.

Edit 2
checkered's post ends stressing using the wide variety of abilities and talents of different young people - not everyone can be a driver - just as in a real racing team - many skills and individuals are needed.. That's the point of the link Urban Youth Racing School.
Last edited by Carlos on 20 Jun 2007, 02:58, edited 1 time in total.

manchild
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I've lived in a socialist country (communist dictatorship) for 18 years and apart from official speeches situation was identical as in capitalist countries - if you could pay for the car and expenses you could race. Even more, to race you needed to join a club and that club usually gave you nothing. So, if you lacked money you had to start getting sponsors but than you even had to give part of money to the club. There was occasional support to proven drivers in lower classes as government auto club gave them expensive tunable cars acquired from customs (illegal import, smuggling etc.) but that was rare.

nae
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even if you are gifted in a relatively cheap sport, lets say athletics , you still require to have available a large amount of resources. that may be understanding or helpful parents or a school with the correct facilities or a myriad of other things. cash of course will always help lubricate your progression but doesn't guarantee you any success.

personally i think it is wrong in the extreme to encourage young people to take part in sports with the only reason to be to 'make it to the big time' sport is fine as a method of teaching sportsmanship and good social responsibility but it should not be a route for fathers to impose the dreams and failing on there off spring, as much becuase it creates a false hope for the vast majority of the youth.

take boxing, its is always touted as a 'route out of the slums' but for every successful youth there are some 50 (random number generated) or more that don't make it professionally and are for all intend and purposes just punch backs for the successful

as for directly encouraging motor sport, it has little or no need of support and the only long term benefits governments see is the technical side.

it has little overall benefit apart from its entertainment value to society as a whole

i still enjoy it and would love to have gone racing but it was never gonna happen so i watch and enjoy, take my car to the odd hot hatch day and try not to get banned on the road

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Tom
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Its an intriguing idea Ciro, as yours always are, and as always there are no definate flaws. The problem is that Karnt are not cars, they react differently to road conditions, i.e. kart circuits don't have crests, and I know first hand that crests can make cars do things you never thought possible, even at low speeds. Marketing it as a way of making the roads safer is probably not going to go down well as there is a strong argument to suggest that teaching people to drive fast will make them over confident, they'll drive fast on the roads and suddenly realise that the tyre barrier in a kart is a brick wall, or worse, in a road car and its comning towards you bloody fast!!!

However cheap motorsport for the masses is something I'd love. Here obviously insurance is always a problem though, hence high costs even for a small indoor circuit.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

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checkered
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Well, Ciro, perhaps I wouldn’t

go as far as bill the program as “socialist racing” since that could pretty much divert attention from your purpose. Unless you’re applying for funds from Hugo Chávez or something. :!: (Come to think of it, no kidding, he might actually like the idea. Propably for all the wrong reasons – his courtship with Iran and attacks on media are really ill advised actions – but if you don’t mind “a bit” of controversy and personal risk ... 8-[ ) But seriously, I believe the capitalist vs. socialist dilemma has become all but irrelevant, we’re facing bigger social/environmental/cultural controversies but as of yet they’re not very well defined.

But enough of that, back to racing, and your ideas.

- a public track in major cities – OK, perhaps to be constructed as a public service facility to service driving schools too, incorporating variable obstacle courses and wet surface training equipment to justify the costs. A racetrack alone might sound like too much fun for bureaucrats ...

- a pool of public karts subsidized somehow (at least in part) by car manufacturers – this could be tricky, public property is generally mistreated. Perhaps a simple modular kart design, parts provided against a fixed (low) collateral, micro loans to cover for that if necessary and a complete refund for any equipment returned in full working order. No sponsors, no modifications (apart from the single make manufacturer) allowed to keep financial competition out of it. Just a few simple setup choices and a set racing weight for absolute equitability (driver weight differences compensated with ballast).

- a voluntary teaching roster – shouldn’t be too hard ... but what about qualifications?

- a certification program that includes a regular license in the end as part of the non-mandatory sports activities you can learn at school - hmm, sounds somewhat complicated, but on the other hand if you want to try and motivate as many kids as possible, a school is the logical venue to get to present your case.

- some sort of bonuses or incentives for public transportation drivers that complete the program when they look for a job – depends on the country. If the professional/occupational driver requirements are strict already there’s no need to involve these sort of schemes. I have to confess I know next to nothing about licencing in Colombia.

- an impulse to "only in the track" amateur racing – almost everyone has to blow off racing steam sometimes. Better to do it in a controlled and legal setting.

- a strong support for "Make our roads safe" FIA campaign – why not.

Btw, using “belligerent Hugo” as an awkward transition, if an affiliation with the red shirts isn’t appealing, you can always go and seek a higher blessing for the project. Just the other day no lesser authority than Vatican released their take on the ten commandments for drivers. If they ring the church bells of Maranello for a Ferrari victory O:) ... and there’s nothing like a public alignment with a moral authority to open a few purse strings and get politicians and businessmen alike throwing around ridiculously large (sized) cheques in photo-ops and chic fundraisers \:D/ . Anyway, here are the “tweaked” commandments, if you’re interested:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070619/ap_ ... _road_rage
1. You shall not kill.
2. The road shall be for you a means of communion between people and not of mortal harm.
3. Courtesy, uprightness and prudence will help you deal with unforeseen events.
4. Be charitable and help your neighbor in need, especially victims of accidents.
5. Cars shall not be for you an expression of power and domination, and an occasion of sin.
6. Charitably convince the young and not so young not to drive when they are not in a fitting condition to do so.
7. Support the families of accident victims.
8. Bring guilty motorists and their victims together, at the appropriate time, so that they can undergo the liberating experience of forgiveness.
9. On the road, protect the more vulnerable party.
10. Feel responsible toward others.
I think you got it spot on, describing the root cause of much of the bad driving as “analfabetism”. Just remember that it can be only part corrected by driving instruction alone. An alarming number of people haven’t got the haziest idea about basic human psychology, the limits of perception, the laws of physics and such to make informed decisions on the road. I’m not suggesting that you hugely expand your project, but if such a scheme has a preset preparedness to lead people to learn more about those sorts of things once they realize there’s an inherent advantage in understanding the stuff, all the better.

To put it simply, racing is only elitist if it’s perceived as such. Racing is also meritocratic, rewarding success and that’s OK as far as I’m concerned. But in order to attract even those with lesser competitive instincts and such, it also needs to be made approachable, playful and democratic. What needs to be respected is the diversity of talents, motivations and objectives we all have – it all starts there and that can’t be planned. Very different kinds of successes, and very subjective successes, apart from merely winning the occasional race have to be rewarded somehow. The way I see it, one has to leave room for surprises and go with the flow once the idea gets beyond one’s own head.

Good luck.

mcdenife
mcdenife
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a pool of public karts subsidized somehow (at least in part) by car manufacturers – this could be tricky, public property is generally mistreated. Perhaps a simple modular kart design, parts provided against a fixed (low) collateral, micro loans to cover for that if necessary and a complete refund for any equipment returned in full working order. No sponsors, no modifications (apart from the single make manufacturer) allowed to keep financial competition out of it. Just a few simple setup choices and a set racing weight for absolute equitability (driver weight differences compensated with ballast).
- a certification program that includes a regular license in the end as part of the non-mandatory sports activities you can learn at school - hmm, sounds somewhat complicated, but on the other hand if you want to try and motivate as many kids as possible, a school is the logical venue to get to present your case.
You could probably sell it more effectively by marketing it as an engineering educational/training ....program, if you like, in partnership with Manufacturers (and govt?). A 'school' not just to train drivers but engineers/technician/mechanics. Sell it as a program to get more kids interested in and taking up engineering/science. Of course this means you will have to allow some form of modifications to the modular design, proposed by Checkered above, probably not to individual modules but to config or layout of the modules. The drivers learn about testing, providing good feedback, setup/config changes & effects thereof and ultimately race craft.

Edit:
To put it simply, racing is only elitist if it’s perceived as such. Racing is also meritocratic, rewarding success and that’s OK as far as I’m concerned.
You have to look at why it is perceived as such. The Costs involved alone are a good indicator that it is elitist. This not just a perception but a fact.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

Carlos
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mcdenife shares elements of my idea - see my link above - Urban Youth Racing School - out lines an entire blueprint for such a programme - with additions tailored to this project - Ciro, perhaps post some of the elements of the UYRS - expanding to "more effective by marketing it as an engineering, educational/training ....program" would make it more appealling as a public service program - every subject taught in high school could take part - every high school department would be interested, arts - english, sciences, technical trades - a Formula 1 team has hundreds of members with skills from all these areas - imagine an entire high school drawing 100 team members from it's student body.

mcdenife idea of micro loans - brilliant - ask car manufacturers,insurance companies, educational foundations ( national and international ) & local businesses, petrol companies, to contribute to micro laons or make outright donations - gov't departments love "public/private partnerships" & don't just send a proposal to The Ministry of Transportation - send it to The Department of Education - Youth Employment - Job Creation - Technology & Developement - Arts & Culture . Contact sourses like the McCarthey and Pew Grant Foundations. Start a dialogue with city high schools, local schools and get them on board to help your lobbying efforts - create a pilot project with a single school.

I'll post again :wink:

EDIT Mcdenife - both you and Checkered expressed good ideas.
Last edited by Carlos on 21 Jun 2007, 23:24, edited 1 time in total.

kurtiejjj
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Yep would be good a idea a course for racing or karting on school. We have a lot of these 'talent pools' here in Holland but mainly for volleyball, hockey and of course football. But as always the sport teachers don't see racing as a sport, as in their minds it's something you don't have to train for and it doesn't involve running in the actual game 8).

I've been thinking about something to bring together the various disciplines. The bussiness side, mechanical and sporting side. I myself am on a school for bussiness. I've been thinking we can't I bring together people from different school together for on project. Say driving Formula Ford. Take mechanics student for the cars, bussiness student for the marketing and bussiness side and a student who likes to race :lol:

This is very much something in sense of where our PM Balkenende has been hammering on, bring people from different 'classes' together and bond. Beside that oir PM is a huge fan of racing cars so maybe I should wirte him a letter :lol: And beside that our socialist party w****r leader also is a huge fan of F1 (can you imagine that :P )

Anyway it's a nice idea but all this hysteria about being green would very much make life very difficult for such a plan.

mcdenife
mcdenife
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mcdenife idea of micro loans
You mean Checkered's idea/suggestion.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

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Tom
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Why not make a driving school teaching road skills in road cars as well as racing skills in racing cars on a big piece of private land?
Again insurance is a problem but if you can teach people the theory and practice of driving really well at a low price off the road and get manufacturers and the goverment interested with the promise of reduced accidents etc. then they can cover the insurance and maintainance. (or even go with the idea of having engineering students fix and maintain the cars)

What I'm trying to say is that if you teach the masses to drive real cars well for cheap and actually make their road driving safer then you can persuede sponsors to come along and fund your school for you and allow you to develop a racing side to the school with karts, hot hatches and other small single seaters.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.