Negativity and Haterism trend....

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strad
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Re: Negativity and Haterism trend....

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I've been watching some old races and one thing that I see was different was the quality of drivers.
There were almost no really low quality drivers.
There was more parity of drivers. Almost all, given a decent car, were capable of winning.
1978 for example:
Niki Lauda, John Watson, Nelson Piquet, Mario Andretti, Ronnie Peterson, James Hunt, Didier Pironi, Patrick Tambay, Jochen Mass, Keke Rosberg, Carlos Reutemann, Gilles Villeneuve, Emerson Fittipaldi, Hans-Joachim Stuck, Clay Regazzoni, René Arnoux, Jody Scheckter, Jacques Laffite, Alan Jones.
Now there were some second stringers and a few clunkers but of the clunkers they often didn't qualify. There were few to no ,,well I guess I shouldn't say any names for fear of starting fanboy stuff, but the names Pastor Maldonado and Romain Grosjean spring to mind. Drivers who wouldn't stand a chance in the best car and are often a danger to themselves and others.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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dans79
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Re: Negativity and Haterism trend....

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Zetsche had some strong comments related to the topic of this thread recently!

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns29548.html
All the criticism was led largely by those who were not successful,
Most definitely we have not sufficiently exploited the potential of formula one, because the official channels of communication have not been used in a professional way,
201 105 104 9 9 7

AxialTurbine
AxialTurbine
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Re: Negativity and Haterism trend....

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Personally I think the 2014 season has been one of the best I can remember. The technology is great and the correct direction for f1. The racing has been good, title battle good. I like drs overtaking its much better than previous years of cars going round and round in procession.

I like tyre and fuel management teams and drivers have to think about their race. There are also some good personalities around, and several ex world champs in the field with great up coming talent making the standard of racing high.

The only negative for me are pay drivers locking out more talented non pay drivers. But I guess that's part of modern f1.

Been watching since the 80s and I don't recall many better seasons overall.

Roll on 2015. All
In god we trust, everyone else brings evidence.

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FoxHound
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Re: Negativity and Haterism trend....

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dans79 wrote:Zetsche had some strong comments related to the topic of this thread recently!

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns29548.html
All the criticism was led largely by those who were not successful,
Most definitely we have not sufficiently exploited the potential of formula one, because the official channels of communication have not been used in a professional way,
I have a lot of time for Dr Z. And he does have a point on both counts.
I think the final point is about as diplomatic as possible by getting the point across without upsetting the figures it was aimed at.
JET set

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GitanesBlondes
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Re: Negativity and Haterism trend....

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strad wrote:I've been watching some old races and one thing that I see was different was the quality of drivers.
There were almost no really low quality drivers.
There was more parity of drivers. Almost all, given a decent car, were capable of winning.
1978 for example:
Niki Lauda, John Watson, Nelson Piquet, Mario Andretti, Ronnie Peterson, James Hunt, Didier Pironi, Patrick Tambay, Jochen Mass, Keke Rosberg, Carlos Reutemann, Gilles Villeneuve, Emerson Fittipaldi, Hans-Joachim Stuck, Clay Regazzoni, René Arnoux, Jody Scheckter, Jacques Laffite, Alan Jones.
Now there were some second stringers and a few clunkers but of the clunkers they often didn't qualify. There were few to no ,,well I guess I shouldn't say any names for fear of starting fanboy stuff, but the names Pastor Maldonado and Romain Grosjean spring to mind. Drivers who wouldn't stand a chance in the best car and are often a danger to themselves and others.
I would say you saw the end of high quality drivers from top to bottom by the mid-90s, and it was solidified by the end of the 90s completely. You had an upper tier of a few select drivers, but the mid to bottom turned into a rotisserie where you could just stick <pay driver name> in.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

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GitanesBlondes
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AxialTurbine wrote:Personally I think the 2014 season has been one of the best I can remember. The technology is great and the correct direction for f1. The racing has been good, title battle good. I like drs overtaking its much better than previous years of cars going round and round in procession.

I like tyre and fuel management teams and drivers have to think about their race. There are also some good personalities around, and several ex world champs in the field with great up coming talent making the standard of racing high.

The only negative for me are pay drivers locking out more talented non pay drivers. But I guess that's part of modern f1.

Been watching since the 80s and I don't recall many better seasons overall.

Roll on 2015. All
If you've been watching since the 80s, you should try rewatching from the get-go again and see if that feeling that 2014 is one of the best you can remember still holds. I've made no bones here about what I think about the overall quality of the F1 product in recent years. Frankly, I could not care less if it gets me labeled as a "hater" by a few muppets around here.

One of the biggest changes for why people think the product is better now has to do with the TV production spending more time showing the midfield than following the leaders who have a +0:30 or greater gap on P2 or lower. They didn't figure out about showing the midfield more for years. Had they done so, it probably would have stopped a lot of the whining that went on from "fans".

Regarding processions....you still get processions now, look at Sochi. Only difference is you will see the procession order swap places a few times due to DRS, but it's not as if processions have magically disappeared. It's just been hidden in artificially created "track battles". Track design is one thing that has a big impact on whether or not there are processions. Monaco is largely processional because you simply do not have a wide enough track to facilitate overtaking. Add 30 feet of track width and Monaco would be a completely different race. If you drive a lap around Catalunya even in a normal road car, it becomes obvious after 1 lap why overtaking is so difficult at that circuit. As F1 moved away from the established European circuits, to the new purpose built facilities in Middle Eastern and Asian markets, those tracks were all designed with overtaking in mind. You get all of those long straights because it's to facilitate potential overtakes, which DRS makes possible.

A number of things in modern F1 are done for nothing more than entertainment purposes, but the worst part is that they attempt to dress it up as some sort of concession to technological innovation. It's a great fall-back, just claim everything no matter how stupid, or ill-thought out as technological progress, and you'll get a bunch of the fans backing them all the way. Kind of like the engines. From a pure engineering standpoint, I will concede that they are impressive pieces of work. But in their frozen state, they become uninteresting as you just wait till the off-season now to see any sort of progress...and what kind of progress will occur is yet to be determined.

I'm not a fan of the technical and sporting regulations at all in their current state. It detracts from everything F1 came to stand for, for the first 50 years of existence. I always felt the beginning of the end began when we saw the introduction of the 3-groove tires in 1998, and then the subsequent switch to 4-grooves for 1999. F1's been in this on-going battle to reduce cornering speeds for the last 20 years, but they never did anything of note to reduce downforce levels seriously. They come up with idiotic engineering ideas to try and foster more entertainment, or to appeal to the green crowd.

All you have to know about what F1 really means on a global level is to look at the sponsorship lists. That's the real indicator of what F1's actual value is.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

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strad
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GitanesBlondes ;
You know I could not agree more.
I still say a big set back was when the FIA changed the tracks and dictated the design of the cars.
Big thumbs up dude. =D>
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Edax
Edax
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Re: Negativity and Haterism trend....

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GitanesBlondes wrote:
AxialTurbine wrote:l
If you've been watching since the 80s, you should try rewatching from the get-go again and see if that feeling that 2014 is one of the best you can remember still holds. I've made no bones here about what I think about the overall quality of the F1 product in recent years. Frankly, I could not care less if it gets me labeled as a "hater" by a few muppets around here.
Firstly I would not call you a hater. But I do think that you are partly tricked by your own memory. Your memory only remembers the "memorable" parts. So like mine, your recollection of racing in the 90's, the 80's or in my case also the 70's is most likely a reel that contains the highlights that you found worth remembering. When you remove that natural bias then I think you may find that the racing in the past years was actually much better than you think it was.

Still I do agree that something is missing. I think it may be down to the circuits. I used to think of the A1 ring as a boring track, this year I was actually relieved that they went back there. Even that old boring track is much better than the synthetic tracks they race on nowadays.

I mean the new tracks are so wide that you could comfortably drive a 747 around. You could probably do that blind there is about a meter of rumble strip on either side to guide you on the right track. Then next of it there is another stretch of asfalt which they paint blue or red, in order to make sure that you dont miss it. Every bumb which is higher than a millimeter is surgically removed.

Compare it to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4_8UYjxBs4

I don't think there is too much wrong with the racing or the racers, but it is the track, which kills every perception of speed and makes the things the drivers do look too easy,

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GitanesBlondes
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I rewatch years of F1 all the time. I have every race since the late 1970s, so I can do direct comparisons all the time, and do just that. It's how I pass the off-season every year as well. ;) Sure there is a bias, but it comes from having that informed comparison.

My point is simply that the current decade doesn't compare on either the entertainment side, or the technical side.

I have favorite races in every era, except for the 2009 and on formula. It's been one long contrived formula that has managed to avoid having any of the appeal of the prior ones.
"I don't want to make friends with anybody. I don't give a sh*t for fame. I just want to win." -Nelson Piquet

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FoxHound
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Informed comparison. Or perhaps a comparison bred from a certain era?
Informed for the time does not equate to universally informed. Great gladiatorial battles are not the dominion of the 70s or 80s. Hakkinen v Schumacher is hallowed ground now, whereas 5 years ago it was a squirmish. Alonso v Hamilton was epic, in a few years it will be revered as defining.
Hamilton v Rosberg will be a quintessential Senna v Prost like for like.

The only thing missing now, is nostalgia.

Unfortunately, a 2014 vintage cannot age to the taste of a 70s burgundy.
It didnt have the same sun, circumstance or management.

You get what you are given. And in 2030, this year will be viewed as a classic. 3 reasons stand out.
1.Red Bulls aero domination was crushed.
2.Mercedes, unlike Red Bull, allowed both drivers a battle.
3.New tech was implemented in the face of a large anti proponent. Massive precedent here in terms of the 70s/80s lobbyists who continuously disregard change.
JET set

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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FoxHound wrote:.....Great gladiatorial battles are not the dominion of the 70s or 80s. Hakkinen v Schumacher is hallowed ground now, whereas 5 years ago it was a squirmish. Alonso v Hamilton was epic, in a few years it will be revered as defining. Hamilton v Rosberg will be a quintessential Senna v Prost like for like.

The only thing missing now, is nostalgia.

Unfortunately, a 2014 vintage cannot age to the taste of a 70s burgundy.
It didnt have the same sun, circumstance or management.

You get what you are given. And in 2030, this year will be viewed as a classic. 3 reasons stand out.
1.Red Bulls aero domination was crushed.
2.Mercedes, unlike Red Bull, allowed both drivers a battle.
3.New tech was implemented in the face of a large anti proponent. Massive precedent here in terms of the 70s/80s lobbyists who continuously disregard change.
Here we are in an era where 80's turbo's return, and still no good. Sure, the 1000+ HP monster-engines have not been reached...YET. but these V6T's werent up to their peak numbers from the get-go. Likewise, we have the first year of the new formula and immense power, paired with hybrid technology. In a couple of years time the power figures will have climbed much higher in regards to what they are now.

As for comparisons to the past - frankly, it's hard to be objective. If one for some reason don't really like the current F1, then the vintage F1 races are always gonna be good, and if you start watching vintage races with in the back of the mind the idea they were golden, then you're only gonna see the good and the postive, and not the negative side and the fact the 80's had their bore just aswell.

'Classic' F1 can be pretty campy, to be honest.

It's like these 'best of the 80's' top 100 radio stations. Obviously people like that stuff, and yeah, there's a lot of great music from the 80s. Still, there's a serious bunch of crap and camp trash in these lists. Were the 80's better then today?
Well that's a matter of taste, really. But Let's just name Coldplay, Kings of Leon, Amy Winehouse, Adele, Ne-Yo, etc. as an example.

Music of today isn't like music of before. Is music today better? no. Is it worse? no ( obviously Justin Bieber is trash, but let's not forget YMCA or Culture Club). Is it different? yes. That's just it. With a nostalgic look, sure, the past is awesome.

But current days have enough of awesome just as well.

Back in the late 90's early 2000's Schumacher's Reign was friggin boring. Today we see it as epic and defining and historic.

Some people are just full of themselves on how their view of an era holds more ground to that of another person.
The people that long for the 'good old days' where everything was better? Go and see F1 historic races and leave modern F1 alone.

People tend to forget a big objective of the FIA is to avoid F1 returning to the dangers that lead to the death of Senna.
One of the main concerns was, and allways will be, cornering speeds. As impressive as it may be for F1 cars going full blast through a corner, it creates a huge danger; the risks involved when control is lost.

Yes, it's more impressive when a F1 car corners with 200 mph instead of 150 mph. But the tiniest of error or something wrong at 200mph has far more devastating effects compared to 150 mph.

First objective then is to avoid cars going 200 mph in a corner instead of 150. if that means laptimes have to drop, is that such a big issue then?
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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strad
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these engines will NEVER see 1000HP..The stupid fuel flow limits won't allow it .
And God knows racing is all about being green and not wasting gas :lol: :roll: :lol:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

emaren
emaren
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strad wrote:these engines will NEVER see 1000HP..The stupid fuel flow limits won't allow it .
And God knows racing is all about being green and not wasting gas :lol: :roll: :lol:
The engines may not, but will the Power-Unit as a whole be capable of that 1000hp for a relatively short period ?

The first F1 race I attended was the British GP in 1972 having been aware of F1 since about 1968/69. Watching some of the races from the 1970's and 80's really shows that we have come a hell of a long way in terms of aero design, track and driver safety (whoever though that catch fencing was a good idea ???). It is also obvious that the drivers have a lot more grip nowadays, seeing the drivers of the 70's and 80's 'all crossed up' was amazing, but surely when you are sliding, you are losing time......

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Andres125sx
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strad wrote:these engines will NEVER see 1000HP..The stupid fuel flow limits won't allow it .
And God knows racing is all about being green and not wasting gas :lol: :roll: :lol:
Wasting gas is only the consequence of petrol engines, racing is not about wasting gas, is about going fast, about competing, about rivality

That can be done with petrol engines, or with hybrid PU. If a PU provides 1000hp that´s fine to me, if it´s coming from a 1.5 turbo engine with no fuel restrictions, or if it´s from a 1.6 V6 with fuel restrictiong and an electric motor pushing the power curve higher, I really couldn´t care less, both are power beasts

And the hybrid one is new technology wich means there´s also an engineering battle. What´s the problem?


Well, current F1 has tons of problems, but the PU in no one of them IMHO

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Andres125sx
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FoxHound wrote:Informed comparison. Or perhaps a comparison bred from a certain era?
Informed for the time does not equate to universally informed. Great gladiatorial battles are not the dominion of the 70s or 80s. Hakkinen v Schumacher is hallowed ground now, whereas 5 years ago it was a squirmish. Alonso v Hamilton was epic, in a few years it will be revered as defining.
Some good battle does not equate to a great seasson
FoxHound wrote:Hamilton v Rosberg will be a quintessential Senna v Prost like for like.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

sorry but Nico need to win some WDC first
FoxHound wrote:You get what you are given. And in 2030, this year will be viewed as a classic. 3 reasons stand out.
1.Red Bulls aero domination was crushed.
2.Mercedes, unlike Red Bull, allowed both drivers a battle.
3.New tech was implemented in the face of a large anti proponent. Massive precedent here in terms of the 70s/80s lobbyists who continuously disregard change.
1. Can´t see how the end of someone domination is enough to consider that seasson a classic :?:
2. What should be the usual procedure, if some teams ruin the competition some seassons that does not mean the rest of the seassons are a classic just because of that
3. Agree with the point, but again, don´t see how this equate to consider the seasson a classic

Classic seassons, IMO, are those with great battles, good competitiveness, and a good amount of uncertainty, specially for the WCC and WDC battles

WCC... I guess this point does not need explanation

WDC... only Hamilton car problems provided some excitement, but on track there was no battle at all, Lewis crushed Nico on every GP they both had their cars ok

So IMO this seasson, from those neccessary conditions (IMO of course) to consider some seasson a classic, there only was a bit of uncertainty due to Hamilton reliability problems, but this only provided enough emotion to avoid one of the most boring F1 seassons ever.

To consider it a classic it´s lacked competitiveness, real battles and a lot more uncertainty. Maybe I´m a seer, but I knew Hamilton would win this WDC many races before the end of the championship.

So no, IMHO this seasson is light years far from being considered a classic