Return Of The Mighty V-10?

[J.A.W.]

I just can't take anything Mr.E. says seriously. Over the last couple of years, so many of his ideas have been damned foolish, and this is just another example. If noise and horsepower were realy his goal, he'd offer up a much simpler suggestion, i.e. 305 ci. or 410 ci. NA v8's ...al la American dirt track racing. They are cheap,compared to modern F1 engines, they certainly provide the, required horsepower, and they produce a rumble that will vibrate your insides. It is a design that is tried and true, and it is still road relevant. This is F1, so of course the manufacturers will work their magic to get the most out of the formula. Engines do not have to be "cutting edge" to be awesome.

I doubt they'd go for it..

.. Ok sure, Brabham did win a couple of F1 W/Champs with a Repco modified Detroit V8 in`66/67..

& F5000 was big, brash & noisy too, but wasn't it killed off by the drive for 'pukka' pursang race mills?

[garrett]

[quote][The F1 sport can do that and remain as extreme as before. You can incorporate those new technologies in the extreme high revving and screaming F1 engines that we used to have in modern F1./quote]

Obviously some "racing fans" should be more open minded and less restrictive and aggressive towards the Unknown.....

That would be the same than to build up an environmental friendly nuke power plant. We should say goodbye to the imagination that only multi-cylindrical, high revving engines with lots of cc can deliver "extreme" racing. I think 2014 has shown the direct opposite with same racing action that were the best I have seen from 1981 onwards.

I also don´t see BMW and Mercedes sticking on their V8. Did you see the Merc TV spot with Hamilton/Rosberg, than you will understand why they engage in current F1. It´s all about hybrid and downsizing. And BMW is taking the road to V6 engines:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11409128117 ... -regularly

Even Renault is thinking about Hybrid now.

And VW/Audi will show up as soon as Ecclestone leaves F1 scene.

The imagination to use the Dino-Jurassic V10 engine again under such circumstances would be like re-erecting The Wall at Berlin. It´s just stupid.

[turbof1]

760 Hp from 27.8 cc/sec would mean a 40+% efficiency, which I seriously doubt, unless Petronas has come up with some rocket fuel?

Well they are rumors; we don't know what the reality will be, but we can assume they have found a something in the order of double digits. A 70bhp increase is however, compared to 2014, an increase of around 10% in efficiency (so before it would be then around 36% efficiency?). Putting it down that way does make it seem 'doable'.

Fuel would probably bring only 1 or 2 percent at best. It's heavily regulated as it is.

[flmkane]

760 Hp from 27.8 cc/sec would mean a 40+% efficiency, which I seriously doubt, unless Petronas has come up with some rocket fuel?

Where have you been this year? There were reports from a Mercedes board meeting that 40%+ efficiency had been achieved. Later on, it emerged that all three engines had at least 40% effeciency.

To be fair, that is the efficiency of the engine + ERS

[xpensive]

Gasoline carries some 44 MJ/kg, or 44 kWs/g, which with 27.8 g/s would mean a 1220 kW input from the fuel.

A 760 HP output, or 560 kW, then suggests an ICE efficiency of 560/1220 equaling a whopping 46% efficiency.

I guess the Nobel prize is coming Daimler's way then?

[turbof1]

Gasoline carries some 44 MJ/kg, or 44 kWs/g, which with 27.8 g/s would mean a 1220 kW input from the fuel.

A 760 HP output, or 560 kW, then suggests an ICE efficiency of 560/1220 equaling a whopping 46% efficiency.

I guess the Nobel prize is coming Daimler's way then?

Well it's not gasoline coming from your local pump either, so we can assume it holds substantially more energy. Plus of course a big chunk does not come directly or indirectly from burning fuel (mgu-h is indirectly) as the mgu-k recuperates energy from braking.

Remember, it's not an ICE that makes that kind of efficiency, it's power unit doing it. A lot of heat that normally would be wasted is recovered. So 40% and 46% are reasonable numbers. They probably would be able to get it significantly higher in time and if the rules allow a higher mgu-k output on the driveshaft. Who knows, maybe years from now the whole car acts as a heat sink that feeds the driveshaft? Or how about sonic energy recuperation?

[xpensive]

Right, if we deduct the 160 Hp MGU-K power from the 760, we are at 600, or some 440 kW, an ICE efficiency of 36%, good enough.

But from where should MHPE's xtra horses for 2015 come from then?

[turbof1]

Right, if we deduct the 160 Hp MGU-K power from the 760, we are at 600, or some 440 kW, an ICE efficiency of 36%, good enough.

But from where should MHPE's xtra horses for 2015 come from then?

That really depends if they were able to exploit the full 160bhp limit in 2014. If so, it's coming from the ICE completely. If not, part from the ICE and part from the ERS.

[dren]

Right, if we deduct the 160 Hp MGU-K power from the 760, we are at 600, or some 440 kW, an ICE efficiency of 36%, good enough.

But from where should MHPE's xtra horses for 2015 come from then?

Lauda said their ICE was putting out 580 at the start of the season. Maybe he was being honest? Another 70 h-peters on top of that and it doesn't look too terribly bad. I bet they weren't running the full 160hp at the MGUK, so some of that increase might be with the MGUK output?

[dren]

Right, if we deduct the 160 Hp MGU-K power from the 760, we are at 600, or some 440 kW, an ICE efficiency of 36%, good enough.

But from where should MHPE's xtra horses for 2015 come from then?

That really depends if they were able to exploit the full 160bhp limit in 2014. If so, it's coming from the ICE completely. If not, part from the ICE and part from the ERS.

We just posted the same thing a minute apart...though you beat me to it...

[bhall II]

I think all of this talk about moving forward technologically or moving backwards misses the point. Automakers aren't involved in Formula One to advance technology at all; they're in F1 to market their wares, which means they're going to advocate for regulations that make such marketing easier/more effective.

"There has to be an intelligent business decision and of course the motivation is marketing," [Daimler AG Chairman Dieter] Zetsche said. "We want to present our brand and we do believe there is no better place to present the brand than in our core marketing in our core business, which is engines, cars and therefore racing.

Consequently, that means the regulations are not shaped with the best interests of the sport as the primary driving force, and I think that should be troubling to fans of F1.

Do we really care about the brand names plastered on the cars or the marketing gimmick known as "road relevance"? Or do we care about racing? Personally, I'd rather watch a series filled with cars powered by the Cosworths of the world if that meant the focus would be on racing.

[xpensive]

This is obviously the difficult part with F1 these days, an xtra 160 MGU-K Hp, but when and for how long?

Somehow I feel that the MHPE advantage is not in peak power but availability around the track.

[turbof1]

I think all of this talk about moving forward technologically or moving backwards misses the point. Automakers aren't involved in Formula One to advance technology at all; they're in F1 to market their wares, which means they're going to advocate for regulations that make such marketing easier/more effective.

"There has to be an intelligent business decision and of course the motivation is marketing," [Daimler AG Chairman Dieter] Zetsche said. "We want to present our brand and we do believe there is no better place to present the brand than in our core marketing in our core business, which is engines, cars and therefore racing.

Consequently, that means the regulations are not shaped with the best interests of the sport as the primary driving force, and I think that should be troubling to fans of F1.

Do we really care about the brand names plastered on the cars or the marketing gimmick known as "road relevance"? Or do we care about racing? Personally, I'd rather watch a series filled with cars powered by the Cosworths of the world if that meant the focus would be on racing.

Yes and no. It's clearly brand exposure, but to who is that exposure pointed to? Someone who only watches tennis is never going to be reached by mercedes being in F1. The marketing is aimed at fans of f1.

I'm also not really sure if any of the engine manufacturers even bother with trying to advertise these things as road relevant. Infact I've only seen Mercedes bringing the link from the F1 market to the public advertising. Ferrari keeps it within the exclusive rings of its customer portfolio (they can't really advertise the engines for their road cars as road relevant either as those are tuned down race engines in somewhat road relevant cars), and from Renault I actually missed out completely on advertising.

This is obviously the difficult part with F1 these days, an xtra 160 MGU-K Hp, but when and for how long?

Somehow I feel that the MHPE advantage is not in peak power but availability around the track.

Yes, my thoughts exactly. I think the biggest misconception about the advantage of the Mercedes PU is that people think it's a peak performance advantage. It isn't, it is the recuperation lap after lap.

[FoxHound]

@ben

Do any of the teams genuinely care about racing over, oooh I dunno, winning?
I say they don't. And, I'll bet they haven't for at least 2 decades.

From Ferrari's veto, through to McLaren's spying then round to Red Bull's "flexibility" and then back to Mercedes' illegitimate/legitimate pirelli test, there are well known precedents here.

Would Mercedes or Ferrari or any current team be involved in F1 if it didn't have its current exposure?
I have serious doubts on that.

Would the solution be a painful 'let F1 eat itself' until from the ashes arises some majestic and notionally romantic racing series?
Or do we accept that F1 in its current form is actually just a reflection of the wider world it finds itself in?

[xpensive]

The manufacturers' interest is dependent on certain xecutives chance to mingle with glamour and half naked babes if you ask me.