2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[Brian Coat]

Variable runner length:

Although we are talking about small gains, as ever, do we think they will include ...

Reduced compressor work (the obvious benefit)
Reduced intake air temperature (knock benefit)
Reduced turbo-accelerating MGU-H work (variable intake geometry effect is very fast cf. turbo)

[gruntguru]

Yes.
Yes if the target MAT is lower than available by inter cooling (I believe the target is well above ambient).
Maybe. The only difference will by the extra time spent spooling to the slightly higher boost required by the fixed geometry system (at some rpm ranges).

[1158]

I had a thought today about the possibility of traction control via the Turbo/MGUH combo. It wouldn't use wheel speed sensors or gps or any of that as it would be illegal but an idea for a way around it hit me. The engine designers know how quickly these engines rev. If the software sees revs rising faster than a certain value could the MGUH not be directed to harvest more energy from the turbo thereby controlling/limiting boost/power and thus wheelspin?

Maybe this is already being done/discussed and I'm a day late and a dollar short...wouldn't be the first time. The engine thread is close to 500 pages so I'm not prepared to go back and look.

[henry]

With the mention of inlet air temperatures I wondered about how they are managed.

With a water-air cooler it is possible to vary the inlet air temperature by varying coolant flow either to compensate for the compressor air temperature or the water temperature

How is control achieved with an air-air intercooler? The coolant flow is dependant on the car speed. So an intercooler sized for 200kph will over cool above that speed and under cool below it. Assuming air inlet temperature is significant this seems a significant disadvantage.

I wonder if the compressor outlet is arranged to feed air both via the intercooler and directly to the plenum, using a control valve, so that it can be mixed to achieve the desired temperature.

If power unit efficiency was the only goal I think managing the air temp would be a high priority. But since it is lap time efficiency that matters maybe they just live with the variation in temperature rather than adding weight and complexity.

I suspect this is also true of variable inlet trumpets. They might make the PU more efficient, and more, or less, reliable, but only when their physical properties are added to the power data and put through a simulator will anyone know if they are worth having.

[Brian Coat]

"The engine thread is close to 500 pages so I'm not prepared to go back and look."

Good point!!

Threads on sub-topics would help; or use of those that already exist.

Concerning the MGU-H traction idea, leaving aside the legality discussion, the response could be quite/too slow due to the transport delays in system?

[Blackout]

Do NA-turbo engines exist?
Imagine a V8 which has exhausts that can feed a turbine at 'low' revs and have a valve that diverts the exhausts progressively away and blow them in the air, like a normal NA engine, at high revs..?

And do you know that in a parallel universe, FIA decided to follow its own route and to leave turbo and road cars to Endurance.? They kept the 2013 V8 and let the teams modernize them with more up-to-date technologies (like variable distribution etc) and more 'futuristic' ones (like cameless distribution etc) and they develop the ERS power and energy sources.
That's why many old and new engine makers re-joined F1. In their world, they still got the sound, they got very efficient engines and they kept costs under control.
In their world, F1 has become a showcase and a technology laboratory again. Their F1 is still as extreme and exclusive as before and is closer to the road cars in the same time... Their F1 stands out and cant be compared to other series because it followed a different route.

Bring back the 2006-2013 V8, update them with modern technologies, add an electric compressor that uses ERS power exlusively and boosts the V8 at the lower revs only. (why not: remove two cylinders)
That way you keep the high revs, the sound and the costs under control : P

What's the point of an electric compressor without an elecric turbine to power it?

It will just reduce the amount of stored energy that can be used for the MGUK, since the only stored energy will have to come from the MGUK.

Why not connect an MGU/electric-compressor (supercharger) to the engine. It would work like a generator and harvest energy at high revs and work like a compressor to boost the engine at low revs...

[1158]

Concerning the MGU-H traction idea, leaving aside the legality discussion, the response could be quite/too slow due to the transport delays in system?

Good point, I do know some aftermarket engine management systems use the rev logic I mentioned to pull timing on cars without wheel speed sensors.

I'm sure that side of the setup would work. I wonder how quickly the MGUH would be able to engage and disengage and if it could be used in the manor I suggested.

[wuzak]

Why not connect an MGU/electric-compressor (supercharger) to the engine. It would work like a generator and harvest energy at high revs and work like a compressor to boost the engine at low revs...

You'd not be recovering wasted energy - instead you would just be burning fuel to power the ERS, which then powers the compressor. A lighter system woudl be to directly drive the compressor through a variable speed drive.

In either case, the power to drive the compressor comes from the crank for a less efficient solution to what they have now.

[henry]

I had a thought today about the possibility of traction control via the Turbo/MGUH combo. It wouldn't use wheel speed sensors or gps or any of that as it would be illegal but an idea for a way around it hit me. The engine designers know how quickly these engines rev. If the software sees revs rising faster than a certain value could the MGUH not be directed to harvest more energy from the turbo thereby controlling/limiting boost/power and thus wheelspin?

I don't think this would work unless you took gear ratios into account. In which case it would be strictly against the rules.

9.3 Traction control :
No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive torque demand by the driver.
Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted.

However, I think that if instead of measuring the acceleration of the engine you measured the rate of change of acceleration it might be possible to detect wheelspin. My reasoning is that I think that as the car accelerates its rate of acceleration decreases, so if you detect an increased of rate of acceleration it probably implies wheelspin and a decrease of power is called for. If this theory is correct you might apply it to the control circuitry for the MGU-K, away from the SECU so not so obvious. It would still be against the rules but maybe it could be justified as protecting the PU from unwanted transients.

[1158]

I had a thought today about the possibility of traction control via the Turbo/MGUH combo. It wouldn't use wheel speed sensors or gps or any of that as it would be illegal but an idea for a way around it hit me. The engine designers know how quickly these engines rev. If the software sees revs rising faster than a certain value could the MGUH not be directed to harvest more energy from the turbo thereby controlling/limiting boost/power and thus wheelspin?

I don't think this would work unless you took gear ratios into account. In which case it would be strictly against the rules.

9.3 Traction control :
No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from spinning under power or of compensating for excessive torque demand by the driver.
Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted.

However, I think that if instead of measuring the acceleration of the engine you measured the rate of change of acceleration it might be possible to detect wheelspin. My reasoning is that I think that as the car accelerates its rate of acceleration decreases, so if you detect an increased of rate of acceleration it probably implies wheelspin and a decrease of power is called for. If this theory is correct you might apply it to the control circuitry for the MGU-K, away from the SECU so not so obvious. It would still be against the rules but maybe it could be justified as protecting the PU from unwanted transients.

Can the MUG-K be used to harvest power under acceleration? I thought read that this wasn't the case but I can't find it anywhere and I could be just making that up.

I think it would def be against the spirit of the rules but same can be said for flexible body work/wings and a litany of other items. I should have explained it a bit better but yeah I was speaking of using the method you brought up. The EMS software I was speaking of does that. Although I wonder if the software would be able to use the gear ratios to calculate what the engine acceleration should be.

I think the software side of it is doable. I just wonder if the ERS would be able to react fast enough to help control the wheel spin.

[henry]

Can the MUG-K be used to harvest power under acceleration? I thought read that this wasn't the case but I can't find it anywhere and I could be just making that up.

I think it would def be against the spirit of the rules but same can be said for flexible body work/wings and a litany of other items. I should have explained it a bit better but yeah I was speaking of using the method you brought up. The EMS software I was speaking of does that. Although I wonder if the software would be able to use the gear ratios to calculate what the engine acceleration should be.

I think the software side of it is doable. I just wonder if the ERS would be able to react fast enough to help control the wheel spin.

I don't think there is any restriction on when the MGU-K can generate. In fact I have seen it said that The ICE drives the MGU-K to charge the ES on the way to the start.

I agree entirely with sentiments on rulescandctheir application

I would expect the MGU-K would be at least as responsive as the ICE in terms of managing traction.

[a1b2i3r45]

Can anybody provide a precise layout of the Honda engine?

[aleks_ader]

Can anybody provide a precise layout of the Honda engine?

Define "precise"?

Anyway until now we know:

Honda made for ABD 2 spec of engine. Of course both were "lab engine".

A spec:

A.1.1: intercooler A-A on right site (90%)
A.1.2: compressor in front of engine like Merc (100%)
A.1.3: tubular insolated exhaust like other 2 manufacturers (100%)
A.1.4: exhaust positioned pretty low due CofG like RB team did (80%)
A.2.1: supposed had clutch assembly combined with the engine block casings (50%)
A.2.2: ERSK attach on the left side (50%), geared from behind near clutch housing (50%)

Legend: Spec type.#source.#NUM: description
#source no1: ABD test, pictures; Scarbs, twitter
#source no2: Honda PU press realese

B spec;

We newer saw that; presumably was normal aka "Renault" setup.

PS: Mods feel free to move this "answer" on Honda PU topic if it its inappropriate...

[Vortex37]

However, I think that if instead of measuring the acceleration of the engine you measured the rate of change of acceleration it might be possible to detect wheelspin. My reasoning is that I think that as the car accelerates its rate of acceleration decreases, so if you detect an increased of rate of acceleration it probably implies wheelspin and a decrease of power is called for. If this theory is correct you might apply it to the control circuitry for the MGU-K, away from the SECU so not so obvious. It would still be against the rules but maybe it could be justified as protecting the PU from unwanted transients.

@henry @1158
Have a look at the recent MGU-K thread and the paper I posted, and my replies to Brian Coat. If you understand how this type of motor works, then you can easily understand how the intrinsic properties can be used for traction control. As written, your above shown quote, would be illegal. However there is no need to do any of that with reluctance/PPMT motor generators, or variations thereof. Also consider that the ICE and ERS is a loop system, and the throttle pedal is now a 'torque/power' demand control. I have re-posted the paper on the dropcanvas link below, together with a TI paper showing the circuit and software for speed/torque control for this type of motor.

http://dropcanvas.com/w1eii expires in 14 days

[Richard]

"The engine thread is close to 500 pages so I'm not prepared to go back and look."

Good point!!

Threads on sub-topics would help; or use of those that already exist.

I'm happy to close this if that's the consensus. We did have an MGU-H thread a while ago, but the interconnectedness of the PU makes it hard to discuss one bit without thinking of the repercussions on another bit.