Return Of The Mighty V-10?

[turbof1]

The issue with entertainment is that it also needs to appeal manufacturers. Not every manufacturer is interested in old V10 technology. They want a set of regulations that allows them to showcase how technoloigcal advanced they are. Even Ferrari embraced that implementing hybrid systems in their road cars.

Let me take an example: GT3 to GT1. Manufacturers lost interesr to back teams, who drove in its last year with roughly the same cars. Even though they ran the same cars, thr cost was still too high and the lms series were actually more attractive, both for teams and manufacturers. The GT1 came to an end after just 3 years even though it embraced loud engines.

The best solution would be an opening-up of the regulations. The current format sounds and is boring when everybody has the same engine; same variation will give it some sex-appeal!

[dans79]

The issue with entertainment is that it also needs to appeal manufacturers. Not every manufacturer is interested in old V10 technology. They want a set of regulations that allows them to showcase how technoloigcal advanced they are. Even Ferrari embraced that implementing hybrid systems in their road cars.

The other issue is that whats's entertaining is subjective. I spend a lot of time & money watching formula one, because I enjoy the engineering, perfectionism, & glamour of it all. If all I cared about was a tight pack, and engines that made my ears hurt, I'd watch NASCAR. I have two tracks within and hour and a half of my house, and my sleep schedule would be a lot more normal during the season.

[Andres125sx]

If all you could hear were tire squeals, and the periodic brake locks, grand prix racing never would have garnered the type of following it did. I could hear crowds cheering during big moments in the V10 era, but it also helps when the races actually have spectators in the stands as opposed to numerous half-empty grandstands.

Sorry but that´s only your assumption, IMO yes it would have garnered teh same type of following it did. Sound has never been the main aspect about racing it´s changed a lot during F1 history, and I didn´t see the stands half-empty at the end of the 80´s (when every top team used turbocharged engines) because turbo engines didn´t sound like previous ones

As I didn´t see more spectators after that period, when turbo was banned, so I only can think engine sound is just an add-on, but has never been as important as some of you state


OTOH I´ve seen stands half-empty last and previous seassons, and that was with V8 engines whose sound was pretty cool, not like V10s but much closer to those than to current V6, but even so stands were half-empty, so sorry but no, sound is not the problem, main problem is lack of competitiveness so the return of V10s will never solve anything

Sound is an integral part of motorsports. Always has been, and always will be.

Trying to disregard sound as a non-starter for the whole race experience is foolish.

Trying to imply sound is main responsible of current F1 problems, and ignoring last seassons the problem was already there even with a cool engine sound is foolish

I've never really understood this recent on-going rationalization by many to try and pretend that engine sound is irrelevant to the experience.

I never said that, I said it´s an extra, something we all enjoy, but it´s never been the main entertainment aspect of F1 like some of you or Bernie now are trying to imply

An extra, bonus, add-on or name it as you want, cool, but not the coolest part of F1

Try and think of F1 less as a pure engineering experience and more of a a mix of engineering and entertainment. It's not a road relevant race series, and never was. The entertainment part is really key as this is what drives a lot of what Bernie's currently doing. Everything is intertwined, but to make money, you have to address the entertainment side of things. Slipping ratings is something that's not going unnoticed by both Bernie and CVC as that directly impacts them when they need to renegotiate new TV deals. You cannot command the current figures if any TV broadcaster can point to a decrease in ratings. RTL's considerations of pulling out of F1 broadcasting has huge implications as it creates a domino effect.

And you continue implying sound is the problem here...

What were the figures last seasson? It all was nice? Everybody was happy? TV audience was superb? Stands were full at every track? No, obviously it´s not the case

All those problems are the same there was last and previous seassons with V8s so you shouldn´t point sound as the main responsible for this, you´d be ignoring reality

Wich BTW is what Bernie is doing for some years now, trying to patch the problem with solutions wich do not solve the root of the problem. His new target for a new patch is sound, but he continue ignoring the root of the problem

[turbof1]

I do believe some important persons in the sport find it a problem. The race organiser of Austin did say the noise is an issue. The question is: should F1 adapt or should F1 try to convince?

Apple is known (in the past) for creating products that initially didn't have demand for, only for the product creating its own demand. The result is a huge smartphone market. F1 should do the same: create a need, a demand for its product. I believe we as a more knowledgable segment of the fanbase still find the current f1 appealing because it's a technical wonderpiece. If they try to expand that knowledge to the complete fanbase, things might turn around.

F1 could be a bit more noisy, but you don't need a V10 for that. You'd need to get rid of the fuel flow limit. I don't think a V10 with a 100kg/h fuel flow will make much more noise then we have now.

[GitanesBlondes]

Andres, I'm already on record here detailing a number of things that have contributed to F1's woes.

F1's current problems are multifaceted. Sound is but just one part of the overall woes...at the end of the day once you get away from the engineering, engine sounds have a way of putting a smile on the face of everyone who hears it. Motor racing is entertainment no matter how you try and dress it up as being integral to the world.

Back in 1930, a couple of grands prix had a mandated 85kg fuel and oil minimum because there were great concerns about being viewed as wasteful to the outside world in the middle of the global economic depression. Just consider that and consider today's atmosphere.

[TAG]

I do believe some important persons in the sport find it a problem. The race organiser of Austin did say the noise is an issue. The question is: should F1 adapt or should F1 try to convince?

Let's be honest here, the race organizer in Austin would have said the sky was purple with orange polka dots if that's what Bernie told him to say.

[dans79]

I do believe some important persons in the sport find it a problem. The race organiser of Austin did say the noise is an issue. The question is: should F1 adapt or should F1 try to convince?

Let's be honest here, the race organizer in Austin would have said the sky was purple with orange polka dots if that's what Bernie told him to say.

I think most of the problems with F1 would magically go away if Bernie did as well.

[McLobby]

I do believe some important persons in the sport find it a problem. The race organiser of Austin did say the noise is an issue. The question is: should F1 adapt or should F1 try to convince?

Let's be honest here, the race organizer in Austin would have said the sky was purple with orange polka dots if that's what Bernie told him to say.

Apparently it's not only one ''new-comer'' organizer who has this issue, and it's naive to believe they just agree with what Bernie says.

''Organizers of the Australian Grand Prix have threatened legal action against Formula One management over a seemingly peculiar issue: the lack of engine noise at this year’s race.

Attendees of this year’s Australian Grand Prix, who are traditionally treated to the high-pitched banshee wail of 2.4 litre V-8 engines, were left wanting by the muted tones of this year’s new 1.6 litre turbocharged V-6 hybrid power plants.

According to SkySports, Australian Grand Prix Corporation Chief Executive Andrew Westacott made it clear that the lack of noise has reduced the spectacle of the event by taking away a visceral element of the fan experience. Westacott said the noise of the new engines could be in breach of their contract with Formula One.''

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/03/ ... -of-noise/

[xpensive]

...
F1 should do the same: create a need, a demand for its product.
...

See if I can try and get you correct here turbomod/member, you suggest that F1 should try and create a market for quiet
economy-racing on eraser-rubber tires with technology and regulations totally unfathomable to the general public?

That's a bold ambition.

[Fulcrum]

From my perspective F1's problems are the manufacturers themselves. They consider F1 a marketing exercise, not the pinnacle of engineering, or the test-bed of road relevant technologies. If F1 had no manufacturers it would undeniably be 'smaller'; less money available to be spent, probably less money earned, and possibly fewer viewers.

The presence of manufacturers committing massive amounts of money for a few tenths of a second has not improved the show. Instead, it has resulted in strangling regulations to prevent the aforementioned manufacturers from exploiting areas that only huge money and manpower can explore. It has resulted in television rights increasingly being moved behind pay-walls, and the marginalisation of driver talent in favour of the ability to pay your way.

In an ideal world I would ban manufacturers altogether and all IP would become public knowledge after a grace period of 1 year. You would still need to innovate to stay in front, but fewer regulatory restrictions would allow for more creative avenues of design.

[mclaren111]

I completely agree with Turbof1.

F1 has always been at front of new technology. Make these engines a bit louder, and in a year or two this technology will be made "easy" by the engineers - that is what they are famous for !

[turbof1]

...
F1 should do the same: create a need, a demand for its product.
...

See if I can try and get you correct here turbomod/member, you suggest that F1 should try and create a market for quiet
economy-racing on eraser-rubber tires with technology and regulations totally unfathomable to the general public?

That's a bold ambition.

This Turbomod totally approves bold ambitions. Turbo-stamped for approval.

Apple managed to create a huge market for essentially a cellphone and internet, things we already had just not combined. Steve Jobs would "boldly go" with bold ambitions. He'd make you even love the wings on a F1 car, mister Xalted.

Point in case: F1 should try harder to sell the product they have.

[R_Redding]

I went to the Friday sessions at Silverstone , and all three days at the Hungaroring.

The TV sound issue is genuine ...but its a FOM TV feed problem , maybe deliberate-maybe not ,but the PUs sound fine in a live setting. The aura of sounds is much more balanced .

The event organisers will side with Bernie personal crusade , but they will also use it as a wedge to reduce hosting fees.

BE always uses a smokescreen to cover his real agenda ,so when he mentions v10s ,look what the other hands doing..whats he really wanting...
Now that Marchionne , De Montezemelo , and BE are on CVCs F1 ruling council , Ferrari will be granted more Ferrari friendly dictats , one of which IMHO is a return to track testing.

Rob

[mclaren111]

Again - totally agree with Turbof1 !!

Get rid of all the Old Farts in FOM & the FIA

Especially Bernie, Montezemolo, Whiting & Todt

[Andres125sx]

I do believe some important persons in the sport find it a problem. The race organiser of Austin did say the noise is an issue.

As someone pointed, that may be BS inspired by BE, or a simple complain to try reducing F1 taxes, wich btw are absurd

IThe question is: should F1 adapt or should F1 try to convince?

Apple is known (in the past) for creating products that initially didn't have demand for, only for the product creating its own demand. The result is a huge smartphone market. F1 should do the same: create a need, a demand for its product. I believe we as a more knowledgable segment of the fanbase still find the current f1 appealing because it's a technical wonderpiece. If they try to expand that knowledge to the complete fanbase, things might turn around.

Exactly, but I don´t think they need to create any fanbase, we´re already here, they only need to point out what are the big targets F1 is achieving and do some rational marketing.

If they stop complaining about their own product and start saying, for example, they´re achieving similar power figures and higher top speeds with a good percentage of fuel saving (no need to say it´s due to the aero, this is just marketing ), and that´s with first serious attempt for an hybrid PU wich will be improving seasson by seasson, they could make it more attractive, manufacturers would be happy to get some advertising for their new hybrid cars, fans would understand the new PU better....

But instead of this, BE feed the haters..... People who live in glass houses shouldn´t throw stones

F1 could be a bit more noisy, but you don't need a V10 for that. You'd need to get rid of the fuel flow limit. I don't think a V10 with a 100kg/h fuel flow will make much more noise then we have now.

Exactly. Or at least increase fuel flow to the point engines can spin to the real rpm limit instead of shifting up 3k rpm earlier because with no more fuel it´s useless to continue increasing rpm....