Engine Unfreeze

[bhall II]

....

[CHT]

Now I can totally understand why Vettel is willing to gamble on Ferrari even though they were only 3rd or 4th fastest last season. Obviously teams with big budget and stake in F1 are going to gain so I see that Renault could possibly slide further back in 2015.

[Manoah2u]

Actually, no. Frankly RedBull has been the team to beat the past years and they are again right there past season except that they can't bridge the Merc power difference. They are 2nd in the WCC and the only team to win besides Merc. Quite the achievement concidering how their pu started out this year.

Financially RedBull has a huge amount to spend and given, RedBull is not Renault, but RedBull can pressurise enough to have Renault sort their things.

The reason Vettel left RedBull was because he was having his *ss handed to him by Ricciardo and Vettel is smart and insightfull enough to see the stint with RedBull came to an end, especially with Newey going. Vettel went to Ferrari because he knows they're in trouble and he's in a position where he can built an entire team the way he wants it to be. Like he had at RedBull but which simply isn't going to happen there anymore, any circumstance.
Ferrari is looking for a new Schumi-era, and Vettel has the ingredients to atleast try it. Ferrari is willing, Vettel is needing, and the combination might work. That's why Vettel's at ferrari, not because the money Ferrari con throw at their PU.

It could backfire at him though because RedBull is in a much better position then Ferrari already in 2014 and Renault will have their engine improved a whole lot for 2015. Despite the Renault had the most trouble in pre-season testing, the engine in the end turned out to be better then the Ferrari units. That means Renault has a gain over Ferrari, and with all the restructuring mess going around at Ferrari right now i don't see the ingredients how Ferrari is able to overcome that difference compared to Renault.

Even if Ferrari manages to build a good aero car, then we can't forget RedBull has had years of experience of the very best aerodynamic car in the field the past years.

Anyway, 2019/2020 essentially is the end-all for the engine manufacturers. IF a new constructor is even remotely concidering entering, they should get in not later than 2016.

Coming back to the engines..........

I've asked this before for non-participating manufacturers in the form of an 'interest project', but let's aim now at excisting engine builders in F1;

Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari, Honda.

They'll all have benefit from knowledge and experience with the new V6T engines.

Now engine homologation speaks about their currently homologated engine.
But does it apply for a new engine?
Let's say Renault is able and willing to smash millions of € in research and engine build, engineering a new engine
that is vastly more powerfull and reliable then their current engine. They've tested the engine in non-recent F1 cars
and believe it's ready and usable.
Now let's say its 2018 or even 2019 when they'll introduce this engine.

Do I understand correctly that if they'd do this, this very engine cannot be adjusted anymore [well, 95% is frozen] -
but CAN they 'do this'?

essentially, it's a brand new engine, that has the benefit of being vastly more powerfull then the old-spec, but you can't
adjust it like you did the old one.
However, you couldn't adjust the old one anymore, either way.

Is this possible or are they simply tied to their 2014 introduced engine?
[and i'm not talking about financial practability, i'm talking if it's actually possible]

[astracrazy]

Anyway, 2019/2020 essentially is the end-all for the engine manufacturers. IF a new constructor is even remotely concidering entering, they should get in not later than 2016.

This, although would you even want to bother for 2016 anyway? It would be one hell of a risk if you don't get the engine right from the get go - you'll never catch up.

Now engine homologation speaks about their currently homologated engine.
But does it apply for a new engine?
Let's say Renault is able and willing to smash millions of € in research and engine build, engineering a new engine
that is vastly more powerfull and reliable then their current engine. They've tested the engine in non-recent F1 cars
and believe it's ready and usable.
Now let's say its 2018 or even 2019 when they'll introduce this engine.

Do I understand correctly that if they'd do this, this very engine cannot be adjusted anymore [well, 95% is frozen] -
but CAN they 'do this'?

essentially, it's a brand new engine, that has the benefit of being vastly more powerfull then the old-spec, but you can't
adjust it like you did the old one.
However, you couldn't adjust the old one anymore, either way.

Is this possible or are they simply tied to their 2014 introduced engine?
[and i'm not talking about financial practability, i'm talking if it's actually possible]

The rules imply your allowed evolution not revolution. The rules don't allow a "new" engine, it would be impossible because i'd imagine its compared against your last engine.

The only thing i can think of as a loop hole, and i haven't looked tbf so i'm shooting in the dark, would be what the fia class as a new manufacturer. So this year, Macca went from Merc to Honda so its a 100% new engine for them (regardless of the rules). What if a current manufacturer essentially changed there official name?

For example, Mercedes are powered by Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains. What if they pulled out, but its ok AMG High Performance Powertrains are coming in (who just so happen to have been using all the data from Merc...)New manufacturer = new engine?

Just a random shot in the dark btw

[lio007]

So if Charlie Whiting says Honda have to follow the same path as the others, then they should get the full 32 tokens in their second year. However they'll only get 15 tokens in their second year.

The other PU suppliers have had a 1 year headstart plus 32 development tokens this season to learn from their year 1 mistakes. How can Honda be competitive against that when starting from scratch? Next year the other suppliers will have used 47 tokens, Honda will only have 15. According to Whiting this is fair and equitable.

Next year they are allowed to use 25 token:

[damager21]

Let me start by qualifying that I am a McLaren fan.

Still, I feel that its only fair for Honda to homologate its engine by 28th Feb. If this was not to be done then there is a huge advantage that Honda would get as compared to other engine suppliers. Why so?

As per the new ruling, engine manufacturers like Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault can homologate their engine at any time they may wish to during the 2015 season. However, till they homologate their 2015 PU, they will have to use 2014 engine. What this means is that engine manufacturers can continue to develop their 2015 PU but they will not get an opportunity to use their PU during season till homologation is achieved (No in season usage during test / race weekend). Pre-season test in Feb is the only time window when they get to test their new PU.

Another disadvantage of late introduction of PU is the aerodynamics. Most of the teams would have already designed their new chassis considering dimensions and needs of the new PU. If Mercedes was to decide to use 2014 PU for the first four races then that may require significant changes at the rear end of 2015 contender. Alternatively teams will have to run a B version of their 2014 car. This would also lead to less track time for 2015 car and hence delay in aero development.

On the other hand, if Honda was also to be allowed a free period for homologation, it would mean that Honda can run their 2015 PU from first race and in parallel develop their engine. This is because, Honda does not have a 2014 engine which McLaren can use. This would be a huge advantage for both McLaren and Honda as on track and actual race weekend data will help them develop their PU faster.

Even if hypothetically Honda was to be given this freedom, then McLaren will not be able to participate in any of the races till Honda homologates its 2015 engine since they don't have a 2014 engine to run.

[Richard]

Next year they are allowed to use 25 token:

Thanks, I've corrected the typo in my original post

[Mesteño]

Great thinking Damager21.

I would add what James Allen said in his web, these manufacturers provide PU to other teams, Mercedes specially. Wouldn't Lotus want to have the 2015 engine -for which they designed their car- the soonest possible to take advantage of it against Ferrari in Championship?

[Blackout]

Could a manufacturer modify a part twice or more? would it cost him another token? another loouphole

[lebesset]

as I see it the FIA are trying to stop Honda having the best of both worlds and gaining an advantage
so they have put charlie in to bat with a hard line stance , Honda will threaten to take it to court [ restraint of trade etc ]
and a compromise will be reached
don't believe me ? wait and see

[Mesteño]

Could a manufacturer modify a part twice or more? would it cost him another token? another loouphole

You can change it million times but homolagate the engine just one

[Blackout]

But homologation has much less value now (AFAIU)... I mean if Ferrari homologates the first spec of its new engine in GPn°1 and decides to mdifiy its MGUK in GPn°3 and GPn°4 once again, would each modification cost them 2tokens (6 tokens in total) or 0 tokens (because they modified the same part?)
Or are they only allowed to modifiy the MGUK once?

[F1NAC]

one question that puzzles me. So can manufactures run for example Ferrari with different turbo size than in 2014 in Australia and than upgrade MGUK or they need to run 2014 engine until they make modifications and then homologate B version.

My point is can they make upgrades race by race (PU)?

[diffuser]

The way I read it is; they can make X number of changes for the year...They can present those changes at any time or any race but can never exceed the X total for the year.

[Mesteño]

But homologation has much less value now (AFAIU)... I mean if Ferrari homologates the first spec of its new engine in GPn°1 and decides to mdifiy its MGUK in GPn°3 and GPn°4 once again, would each modification cost them 2tokens (6 tokens in total) or 0 tokens (because they modified the same part?)
Or are they only allowed to modifiy the MGUK once?

Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying, but I think you can just homologate the entire package and final spec of your power unit, and once you homologate the PU of 2015, that with the loophole can be whenever of year 2015, all the modifications you make you can only introduce them in homologation of PU 2016 and not before. Just in the case that it has reliability issue you can change a part and introduce it before homologation of 2016.