Engine Unfreeze

[skt36]

As of having to homologate a new engine on the same date, that'll be interesting. What happens for instance if Mercedes brings all updates before the season starts, or if they don't agree with the proposed date from Ferrari and Renault? A very interesting dynamic of politics which unfortunaly have little to do with racing and developing a car... .

To clarify, I meant that this happens independently for each manufacturer. Each manufacturer can update the PU whenever they want, but every team with that PU will have to make the change at the same time. If Mercedes HPP bring all the updates for race one and Renault/Ferrari don't, they will demolish the other teams until they introduce the rest of their updates, at which point they will still win by miles, but it will be slightly closer.

I expect that every engine manufacturer (bar Honda) will run a similar strategy of using most of the tokens for Australia, with a small upgrade 1/4 of the way through the season.

Honda will argue that 2014 had nothing to do with them since they didn't entered that year. From Honda's point of view, what's fair or not fair will be judged the moment they can run the engine, not before that. They'll definitely argumentate that a) because this is not a matter of cost-saving, reliability or safety 1.c isn't applicable and thus the fia cannot have the final word in the sense of "fairly and equitably" and b) even if 1.c is considered, it isn't fairly and equitably. They'll very likely argumentate a lack of running a full season which the others have, and that their return was judged on the assumption that everybody would have to homologate the power unit before the start of the season.

The decision is made by the FIA with consultation with the other manufacturers. If they decide that what is fair is that Honda aren't allowed to make any changes under 1.b then Honda either have to accept that or not supply an engine.

2014 is relevant for Honda as the regulations focus on a date in 2014. The second paragraph of 1.c is irrelevant to Honda as they aren't modifying a PU under 1.c, they are delivering one. Therefore there are no "such changes".

The only part of Appendix 4 that is relevant to Honda right now is the section of 1.c saying

An homologated power unit...any such power unit is one which is identical in every respect to

A power unit delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014...which the FIA is satisfied, in its absolute discretion and after full consultation with all other suppliers of power units for the Championship, could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologated power units.

What happens after that is open to debate, but until the FIA are "satisfied", Honda don't have an engine. This needs to be there otherwise Renault could turn up in 2015 with a completely new engine badged as a Nissan or similar.

[turbof1]

The decision is made by the FIA with consultation with the other manufacturers. If they decide that what is fair is that Honda aren't allowed to make any changes under 1.b then Honda either have to accept that or not supply an engine.

I believe it isn't. I was wondered why this was sounding familiar and now I remember why. These are infact remnants of the V8 rules. Back in 2010, Ferrari had to make a change to their pneumatic valves for reliability. The content of the change was passed on to every other manufacturer, giving them the option to lodge a complaint if they deemed it was unfair.

This is the exact same case of 1.c. I stand with my opinion 1.c only applies in case of reliability, cost-saving and safety. If a manufacturer needs to make a change based on one of those 3, the fia together with the others will decide if that is fairly or equitably. But none of that is applicable on a new manufacturer. If 1.C is not deemed applicable, neither the fia or the other manufacturers/teams have a say in this. Yes, I know it says "A power unit delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014". However, 1.b states this as well. Furthermore, I think you can read 1.c the best as this:

A power unit delivered to the FIA after28 February 2014, could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologated power units.

This part describes that a manufacturer should have the chance to be able to make changes when it's competitivity is halted by reliablity or a huge, not normally surmountable performance deficits. This has nothing to do (well, not yet because who knows what happens in the future.) with Honda since nobody knows how well they'll do against the competition. In my view, the FIA tries to bent it in their own view here, but if it gets decided in front of a court that 1.c is not applicable, the fia can't use the fair and equitable principle.

[Blackout]

This BS (I meant 5 GP)

[turbof1]

So each manufacturer needs to wait until the current turbo/ES/ICE/PCU/K/h spec has ran the distance of 4 GP in order to introduce the next spec?
Can Kvyat run a spec2 Pu which has an spec1 turbo for example, while Ricciardo is running a complete spec2 PU? Or Must RIC wait until Kvyat's turbo reaches the 4gp distance? or must Kvyat get a spec2 turbo and get a penalty?

They really have opened not just a can of worms, but THE can of worms, haven't they .

Everything that is homologating can go on the car. Indeed that means you can drive a spec1 pu with a spec2 turbo, while your teammate runs a spec2 pu but with a spec1 turbo and a spec3 (yes, that's possible too) battery. You can introduce it whenever you want, but you need remember that you can only use 4 of each part, no matter what spec. So if they decide to replace a a part with an updated one, while the outdated hasn't reached the full mileage yet, they might have to run that outdated part again at the end of the season.

Or let's continue this thought and assume next year they forget to add the date again ! You can run a 2014 engine with a 2015 spec3 turbo, which is over all the years spec4, your teammate runs a 2015 engine and had the luck of getting a shiny new 2016 spec5 mgu-k, but your darned mercedes engine-provider already runs the 2016 engine with a spec7 mgu-h. Meanwhile at Ferrari they figure their spec4 EC isn't working and their revert back to their spec2 EC from 2014, because the spec3 from 2015 isn't compatible.

(I'll just leave now before anyone who survives the brain stroke goes after me.)

[Blackout]

Yes but are'nt KVY's PU and RIC's PU two different PUs in that case? while the rules only allow a single PU spec!?

[Mesteño]

I lost myself at some point of the 3 previous messages and I am very ignorant of this, so if I am making a mistake with this I'm sorry, but the fact is that I actually read something about ONE homologation in an article by James Allen and Dominic Harlow. It says ' The crucial thing to remember here is that they have to homologate their 2015 engine at some point and – as it will be more powerful and more efficient than the 2014 unit – they will not want to wait too long to introduce it'.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/01/a ... ules-mean/

As I understand, there is only one homologation, meaning the manufacturers say OK FIA THIS IS MY 2015 POWER UNIT AND IT'S SUPERCOOL.

The whole article is in those terms, one homologation, one time in the season to introduce all the updates of the 2015 engine, and I even read somewhere (can't remember where) that teams would be able to test 2015 engine in the preseason but not in friday test during the season, so to me it's obvious they can use 2015 engine in races, or 2014+ with modifications.

[SectorOne]

Now how the hell do you as an organisation that regulates all of motorsport miss to put in a bloody date for a 2015 engine homologation?
It´s literally a copy and paste from the 2014 homologation.

[skt36]

As I understand, there is only one homologation, meaning the manufacturers say OK FIA THIS IS MY 2015 POWER UNIT AND IT'S SUPERCOOL.

Everything that is homologating can go on the car. Indeed that means you can drive a spec1 pu with a spec2 turbo, while your teammate runs a spec2 pu but with a spec1 turbo and a spec3 (yes, that's possible too) battery. You can introduce it whenever you want, but you need remember that you can only use 4 of each part, no matter what spec. So if they decide to replace a a part with an updated one, while the outdated hasn't reached the full mileage yet, they might have to run that outdated part again at the end of the season.

This isn't what the regulations say. Only one PU can be homologated at any given time. Given that the power unit comprises all 6 elements, making changes to any of the elements renders previous iterations unuseable as they are no longer the homologated part. If the 2015 PU has the same MGU for example as the 2014 PU then they will be interchangeable. If the 2015 PU has an upgraded MGU then they will not be allowed to reuse the old MGU.

As I said, this is just what the regulations say, whether they are interpreted differently and whether it is enforced are different matters.

Going back to the meaning of 1.c, I believe it addresses 2 different cases.

Case 1 - A power unit delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014

An homologated power unit...any such power unit is one which is identical in every respect to

A power unit delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014...which the FIA is satisfied, in its absolute discretion and after full consultation with all other suppliers of power units for the Championship, could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologated power units.

Case 2 - A power unit modified or re-delivered after that date outside the token system (As in the Ferrari V8)

Such changes will normally only be accepted if they are being proposed for reliability, safety or cost-saving reasons. Any manufacturer wishing to make a change for any of the above reasons must apply in writing to the FIA Technical department and provide all necessary information including where appropriate, clear evidence of failures. The FIA will study such requests and, if they agree that the changes should be permitted, will circulate the correspondence to all manufacturers for comment. If the FIA receive no comments which cast doubt on their original decision about the proposed modification(s) they will confirm to the manufacturer concerned that they may be carried out.

I can see what turbof1 is trying to say about a 3rd interpretation of

A power unit delivered to the FIA after28 February 2014, could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologated power units.

however 1.c would then read as follows

A power unit delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014...which the FIA is satisfied, in its absolute discretion and after full consultation with all other suppliers of power units for the Championship, could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologated power units.

Which can be condensed to

A power unit delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014...which the FIA is satisfied, could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologated power units.

the phrase "which the FIA is satisfied" in this case makes no sense on its own. It needs to be linked to the "could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologated power units" as in "which the FIA is satisfied could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologated power units", as the FIA must be satisfied about something due to the presence of the word which.

Now how the hell do you as an organisation that regulates all of motorsport miss to put in a bloody date for a 2015 engine homologation?

The FIA probably expected that everyone would want to use the upgraded engine as soon as possible. Letting people delay the upgrade in order to do more development isn't necessarily a bad thing. Teams have to trade points early in the season for points later on (and in future seasons)

[KeiKo403]

OK, to add to this mindfcuk, what is to stop Ferrari (FIAT), developing a FIAT Engine, totally unrestricted and homologating it for by Feb 2016 and run away with the 2016 Championship? Only the Ferrari PU is homologated and bound to the rules. Introduce a FIAT for 1 year, come back in 2017 again with a Ferrari PU.

Renault/Infiniti could do the same thing for Red Bull/Torro Rosso.

I get there would be a bit of a PR sh1tstorm if Ferrari won a championship powered by a 'FIAT-badged' engine but come on, they're there to win races and championships. It's messy, I get it. But what team doesn't want to win that much to not take this approach?

[triart3d]

Its 31-12-2014

Let's say Honda send his PU to FIA today
- Isn't "A power unit delivered to the FIA no later than 28 February 2014"

- Isn't "A power unit delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014 which has been modified in accordance with the Annual F1 Power Unit Homologation table" because in 2014, modifications are allowed and is not a modification.

No 1.A
No 1.B

- Isn't "A power unit modified and re-delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014, which the FIA is satisfied, in its absolute discretion and after full consultation with all other suppliers of power units for the Championship, could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologatedpower units" Because its a NEW power unit, not a modification of one previusly delivered to FIA.

But 1.C has TWO cases..

And a NEW PU byHonda is:
"A power unit delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014, which the FIA is satisfied, in its absolute discretion and after full consultation with all other suppliers of power units for the Championship, could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologatedpower units"


So, Honda can homologate by 1.C as a NEW engine.

remember.. Its 31-12-2014


Why can't Honda in 2015 modify this PU delivered on 31-12-14?

Art 1.b say "A power unit delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014 which has been modified in accordance with the Annual F1 Power Unit Homologation table" and in this case, apply to a Homologated Honda engine.


So..
Why can't Honda deliver to Fia his homologated engine modified in accordance with the annual F1 PU table.. on 31-12-2015?

[KeiKo403]

How will this be policed?
"A power unit delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014, which the FIA is satisfied, in its absolute discretion and after full consultation with all other suppliers of power units for the Championship, could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologatedpower units"

As it looks like the "other homologated power units"will be as the PU's were as of Feb 2014. But if current engine manufactures don't homologate 2015 until the last race (November 2015) then how is that right?

FIA will only accept new PU's if they are on the same competitive level as PU's from Feb last year? Remember excluding any and all tokens used throughout 2015 as these PU's aren't the homologated ones.

Like him or not but F1 wouldn't be in this current mess (not mess but I'll use the word mess) if Mosley was still at the helm of the FIA.

[skt36]

OK, to add to this mindfcuk, what is to stop Ferrari (FIAT), developing a FIAT Engine, totally unrestricted and homologating it for by Feb 2016 and run away with the 2016 Championship? Only the Ferrari PU is homologated and bound to the rules. Introduce a FIAT for 1 year, come back in 2017 again with a Ferrari PU.

They can only homologate this new engine under 1.c, which means that the other manufacturers have to agree to the introduction of a new engine.

Why can't Honda deliver to Fia his homologated engine modified in accordance with the annual F1 PU table.. on 31-12-2015?

They need to homologate the engine before they can use it in an event (FP3 onwards)

As for the rest of the post, there is nothing in the regulations preventing Honda from developing the engine after the initial homologation using 1.b. I am assuming that given the FIA seem to not be allowing Honda to upgrade the engine the condition of giving approval for the homologation of a new engine under 1.c is that they are deemed to have used all of their 2015 development tokens.

As it looks like the "other homologated power units"will be as the PU's were as of Feb 2014. But if current engine manufactures don't homologate 2015 until the last race (November 2015) then how is that right?

The other manufacturers will most likely homologate twice. Once at the start of the season, and secondly when they introduce the 2nd PU of the season with further upgrades. This is discussed over the previous few pages.

Honda's equality should either be judged relative to a 2015 powertrain (2014 with 32 tokens spent) and they have 0 development tokens left, or a 2014 powertrain delivered in Feb last year (on a par with Renault at the start of the season) and they should then be allowed to spend 32 tokens this season.

It is pretty clear that Honda's engine would not be a fair competitior with the early Renault engines and that the closest comparison would be a 2014 engine with 32 tokens of development. Therefore it seems fair to allow Honda to introduce an engine under 1.c but with 0 tokens to spend in 2015 under 1.b

[Mesteño]

The more I read about this the fairer I see it. Maybe I would give some tokens to Honda, or give them the oportunity of spending some 2016 tokens this year, I think that would be fair as they couldn't see their engine on track.

Anyway one thing to notice is what message they are sending to possible new manufacturers. Not a positive one indeed.

[triart3d]

Why can't Honda deliver to Fia his homologated engine modified in accordance with the annual F1 PU table.. on 31-12-2015?

They need to homologate the engine before they can use it in an event (FP3 onwards)

As for the rest of the post, there is nothing in the regulations preventing Honda from developing the engine after the initial homologation using 1.b. I am assuming that given the FIA seem to not be allowing Honda to upgrade the engine the condition of giving approval for the homologation of a new engine under 1.c is that they are deemed to have used all of their 2015 development tokens.

Yes, Honda must homologate 1 and only 1 PU.
Yes, they must do before the first event. (13-15 mar)
If Whiting don't mark 28F as his limit, tThey may deliber to FIA until 12-m.


But you think the homologation of Honda is due to art 1.b

I don't thin so.
As you say, Honda don't have an homologated PU..

1.b is for homologated PU, modified in accordance with the Annual F1 Power Unit Homologation table

If you don't have a homologated PU, you cant modified it.

Honda send to FIA a 100% NEW power unit.. Not a "only 48% new" modified PU.


It's the art 1.C the article that allow any new manufacturer to deliver a 100% NEW PU to FIA.. ONLY IF other manufacturers agree.

[skt36]

Yes, Honda must homologate 1 and only 1 PU.

Where does it say that you can only homologate one PU?