Engine Unfreeze

[Nickel]

Yes, Honda must homologate 1 and only 1 PU.

Where does it say that you can only homologate one PU?

The use of "A power unit" rather than "EACH power unit" would seem to indicate one homologation.

[triart3d]

Yes, Honda must homologate 1 and only 1 PU.

Where does it say that you can only homologate one PU?

The use of "A power unit" rather than "EACH power unit" would seem to indicate one homologation.

F1 Sporting regulations 2015
APPENDIX 4
POWER UNIT HOMOLOGATION

Code: Select all

2. A manufacturer may homologate no more than one specification of power unit.

[turbof1]

You can interpret that as "you are only allowed to run one specification of power unit at a time", nothing stops you from homologating a new one and drop the old one. How else are are the other manufacturers be allowed to introduce updates throughout the season?

However, this rule is subject to being trampled on. The fia already allowed caterham, if they ever came back, to run a 2014 power unit while the other can run 2015 ones. It doesn't look far fetched everybody would be allowed that, even between team mates.

[triart3d]

You can interpret that as "you are only allowed to run one specification of power unit at a time", nothing stops you from homologating a new one and drop the old one. How else are are the other manufacturers be allowed to introduce updates throughout the season?

However, this rule is subject to being trampled on. The fia already allowed caterham, if they ever came back, to run a 2014 power unit while the other can run 2015 ones. It doesn't look far fetched everybody would be allowed that, even between team mates.

1st, yes. i think same "you are only allowed to run one specification of power unit at a time".
Honda must homolgate 1 PU (art1.c, New PU. ) before 28F.

They run this homologated PU in his first PU for 5 races.

Then, nothing say in rules that they can't modify and homologate other PU by 1.B using 5 tokens (homologated unit, modified by anual homlogation table ) and run on races 6-10.

Homologate other PU by 1.B, using 5 tokens, and use on races 10-15

And so on..

And in 31-12-15, using last tokens of 32allowed, homologate again the last PU of 2015.


2Nd, NO.
Caterham isn't a PU manufacturer.
Renault is.

Renault is who are allowed to run one specification of power unit at a time, not Caterham.

[Nickel]

You can interpret that as "you are only allowed to run one specification of power unit at a time", nothing stops you from homologating a new one and drop the old one. How else are are the other manufacturers be allowed to introduce updates throughout the season?

This is still up for debate. I have only seen speculation with regards to the number of updates allowed during the season. I'm of the opinion that those interpreting it as "start with a 2014 pu then homologate a 2015 one" are correct, but who knows how the courts, the FIA et al. will end up going. I keep coming back to the wording "A homologated power unit". Although no date is specified, it definitely is specified, through the word "A" that you are limited to one. I fail to see how you can argue that you may homologate as many times as desired because no date is set.

However, this rule is subject to being trampled on. The fia already allowed caterham, if they ever came back, to run a 2014 power unit while the other can run 2015 ones. It doesn't look far fetched everybody would be allowed that, even between team mates.

Didn't this already happen last year anyways when Renault made a reliability upgrade and only gave it to Red Bull for one gp before supplying it to Toro Rosso and Lotus? I can't recall when that occurred but I can't seem to get the notion out of my head.
*edit: this was in Bahrain. Red Bull and toro rosso got an updated engine while lotus and caterham had to wait.

[bonjon1979]

apparently the reason this can of worms has been opened is because the fia made a mistake and didn't change the date on the rules from 2014 to 2015. So teams argued that they didn't have to homologate their engine annually as the rules intended. Since this is the case by the same token I can't see how Honda can comply with the rule to homologate by 28th of feb 2014 as this would require a time machine. the rules are kind of defunct because of is mistake and you can't say to all he other teams, oh well, you get to do what you like because we made a mistake while at the same time say to Honda that the rule means 2015 not 2014.

[lebesset]

I wonder if Honda would go quietly if the FIA offered that the engine as homologated for the 2015 season was the development engine , and for that reason they could use 5 without penalty as the other teams could in 2014

[TAG]

The FiA could correct the omission couldn't they? I can't help but think that Bernie's bought himself the outcome he was looking for.

[bonjon1979]

The FiA could correct the omission couldn't they? I can't help but think that Bernie's bought himself the outcome he was looking for.

Apparently they need unanimous agreement from the teams to change the rules. However, my point is, how can they have it both ways? how can they say to Honda that they have to homologate by the 28th as per the intention of the rule ie it was supposed to say 2015 not 2014. But then allow the other teams to ignore the intention of the rule and allow them to stick to the literal letter of the rule. It's a massive contradiction.

[triart3d]

The FiA could correct the omission couldn't they? I can't help but think that Bernie's bought himself the outcome he was looking for.

Apparently they need unanimous agreement from the teams to change the rules. However, my point is, how can they have it both ways? how can they say to Honda that they have to homologate by the 28th as per the intention of the rule ie it was supposed to say 2015 not 2014. But then allow the other teams to ignore the intention of the rule and allow them to stick to the literal letter of the rule. It's a massive contradiction.

i find easy to understand the rules.. if you make a litle change...

1. An homologated power unit must include all the parts described as “INC” in the “App. 4 Sporting regs.” column of Appendix 2 of the F1 Technical Regulations. Other than any parts solely associated with power unit installation in different types of car (which have no performance benefit and which may be changed from time to time during the homologation period with the consent of the FIA), any such power unit is one which is identical in every respect to either:

1. A power unit delivered to the FIA no later than 28 February 2014.
2. A power unit delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014 which has been modified in
   accordance with the Annual F1 Power Unit Homologation table in Appendix 4 to the F1 Technical Regulations.
   
   Once homologated in accordance with a) or b) above, and except as permitted by (c) below, no changes may be made to the design or construction of the homologated parts for the duration of the homologation period laid out in Article 28.5 of the F1 Sporting Regulations. **
   
   ** 28.5 Only power units which have been homologated by the FIA in accordance with Appendix 4 may be used at an Event during the 2014-2020 Championship seasons.
3. 1) A power unit delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014, which the FIA is satisfied, in its absolute discretion and after full consultation with all other suppliers of power units for the championship, could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologated power units
   
   2) A power unit modified and re-delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014, which the FIA is satisfied, in its absolute discretion and after full consultation with all other suppliers of power units for the championship, could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologated power units.
   Such changes will normally only be accepted if they are being proposed for reliability, safety or cost-saving reasons. Any manufacturer wishing to make a change for any of the above reasons must apply in writing to the FIA Technical Department and provide all necessary information including where appropriate, clear evidence of failures. The FIA will study such requests and, if they agree that the changes should be permitted, will circulate the correspondence to all manufacturers for comment. If the FIA receive no comments which cast doubt on their original decision about the proposed modification(s) they will confirm to the manufacturer concerned that they may be carried out.

.




Remember:
Honda could "fairly and equitably be allowed to homologate no later than 28 February 2014"

Honda homologate its PU by 1.c

[Blackout]

So this means Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes can't bring more than one update* during the season if they start with the 2014 PU. The update simply consists on trasforming the 2014 PU in a 2015 PU using the tokens.
The PU is completely frozen once you homologate it*.
*exept reliability, cost saving etc...

Once homologated in accordance with a) or b) above, and except as permitted by (c)
below, no changes may be made to the design or construction of the homologated
parts for the duration of the homologation period laid out in Article 28.5 of the F1
Sporting Regulations.

[Mesteño]

Exactly, that's my understanding.

[Richard]

how can they say to Honda that they have to homologate by the 28th as per the intention of the rule ie it was supposed to say 2015 not 2014. But then allow the other teams to ignore the intention of the rule and allow them to stick to the literal letter of the rule. It's a massive contradiction.

The cars have can only use a homolgated PU. Engine supplies can bring the existing homolgated PU (ie 2014). If Honda don't homolgate then the car won't have a PU.

The existing teams can then use the tokens to update the PU during the season. They can homolgate at a tome of their choosing, presumably when they've used up their tokens.

The only contradiction is that Honda are already from scratch and are guaranteed to drop further back because they aren't allowed to develop their PU during the season.

I wonder if Honda would go quietly if the FIA offered that the engine as homologated for the 2015 season was the development engine , and for that reason they could use 5 without penalty as the other teams could in 2014

Indeed. If Whiting says a new engine has to conform to the same restrictions as the other new engines then Honda should have 5 PUs just like the other suppliers got when introducing a new PU.

[Sasha]

What is fair....

1)If they have to live by the 2014 rules then they get 5 PU for the season but no upgrades allowed.

2)or they get the same rules as everybody else in 2015 and can upgrade their PU but only 4 PU.

Also here is another piece people don't know...Honda only gets 25 tokens in 2016 like everybody else.
That was the only problem Honda had to deal with by sitting out 2014 until this loop-hole problem.

[Mesteño]

CharlieW: “As the existing manufacturers were obliged to homologate their power units by 28 February 2014 it would seem fair and equitable to ask a new manufacturer to homologate their power unit before February 28 2015.“

Reading the original source, Charlie never says Honda runs out of tokens when homologating, it is Autorsport who makes that interpretation.