Engine Unfreeze

[raymondu999]

IMO it actually is fair. You have to remember that the teams have 2014 engines. Honda does not. The other teams are going to do a delayed homologation of their 2015 pieces, which includes the 2014 unit, + upgrades. If Honda wants to use 32 tokens, then they should delay their homologation too. But they can't - otherwise they'd miss the first few races.

[Moose]

IMO it actually is fair. You have to remember that the teams have 2014 engines. Honda does not. The other teams are going to do a delayed homologation of their 2015 pieces, which includes the 2014 unit, + upgrades. If Honda wants to use 32 tokens, then they should delay their homologation too. But they can't - otherwise they'd miss the first few races.

I don't see it as fair in any way shape or form. The fact that the other teams have a 2014 engine means that they already have much more data and understanding available to them. Banning Honda from developing their engine too is doubling that handicap. They will now not only be one year behind, they'll be one year, and one decrement of engine development tokens behind, which is a much stiffer penalty.

If you extrapolate out how Honda is being treated, there's basically no chance of VW joining the sport in the future. Suppose VW were to prepare an entry for 2017 - they would have to enter with a brand new engine then, and then not get any tokens. Effectively their first "development" would be in 2018, by which time all of the actual engine developments are banned.

Basically, it's not good for the sport to handicap newcomers - it discourages any newcomers from ever appearing.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

IMO it actually is fair. You have to remember that the teams have 2014 engines. Honda does not. The other teams are going to do a delayed homologation of their 2015 pieces, which includes the 2014 unit, + upgrades. If Honda wants to use 32 tokens, then they should delay their homologation too. But they can't - otherwise they'd miss the first few races.

I don't see it as fair in any way shape or form. The fact that the other teams have a 2014 engine means that they already have much more data and understanding available to them. Banning Honda from developing their engine too is doubling that handicap. They will now not only be one year behind, they'll be one year, and one decrement of engine development tokens behind, which is a much stiffer penalty.

If you extrapolate out how Honda is being treated, there's basically no chance of VW joining the sport in the future. Suppose VW were to prepare an entry for 2017 - they would have to enter with a brand new engine then, and then not get any tokens. Effectively their first "development" would be in 2018, by which time all of the actual engine developments are banned.

Basically, it's not good for the sport to handicap newcomers - it discourages any newcomers from ever appearing.

Honda came late to the competition, it was their problem and I guess it was intentional to come late. Everyone knew about the new era that was going to come in F1 as it was not a secret and was announced a long time back. When Renault, Ferrari and Merc were in dark about what kind of PU architecture is the best and went ahead in their designs, Honda had the luxury to wait and see which architecture is the best, then copy it and create one. Whats more, they even had their hands on the PU that proved to be the best and were in THE BEST POSSIBLE POSITION to gain all advantages. They got to know all the possible problems of PU/Chassis integration, without themselves undergoing it whereas Merc, Ferrari and Renault had to learn through a hard year's experience.

Now to come and cry foul, looks pathetic on their faces. It's only fair to follow the same protocol that the other manufacturer's went through. Why should there be an exception? If they think they are world class and deserve to win, they will compete in the fairest way.

[giantfan10]

So this means Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes can't bring more than one update* during the season if they start with the 2014 PU. The update simply consists on trasforming the 2014 PU in a 2015 PU using the tokens.
The PU is completely frozen once you homologate it*.
*exept reliability, cost saving etc...

Once homologated in accordance with a) or b) above, and except as permitted by (c)
below, no changes may be made to the design or construction of the homologated
parts for the duration of the homologation period laid out in Article 28.5 of the F1
Sporting Regulations.

The homologation period: 2014-2020

Send FIA ver 1.0 and homologate 28-f-2014

Send FIA ver 1.1 and homologate on 15-03-2014, by 1.c
Send FIA ver 1.2 and homologate on 30-06-2014, by 1.c
...
Send FIA ver 1,5 and homologate on 15-11-2014, by 1.c
(in 2014, can't homologate by 1.b)

2015
Send FIA ver 2.0 and homologate on 10-03-15, using 10 tokens than can't be used again by 1.b

Send FIA ver 2.1 and homologate on 10-06-15, to reduce cost, by 1.c
Send FIA ver 2.2 and homologate on 15-09-15, using 10 tokens than can't be used again, by 1.b
...
Send to FIA the last PU of 2015, on 31-12, usin the last 12 tokens, by 1.b



the best of 2015 homologation

Because Honda's new engine is racing for the first time 2015, the FIA believes it is "fair and equitable" that Honda complies with the same restrictions as its rivals last year

It's a joke?

Send

i believe that barring honda from upgrading their engine during the 2015 season is absolutely fair.
they are being treated EXACTLY the same way that all the other manufacturers were treated in their first year of running the V6
it can be argued that honda will still have an advantage over the teams that can only change limited portions of their PU from last year..honda can change anything they want on their PU untill 28 feb with no restrictions whatsoever..no other manufacturer can do that
Honda didnt decide to come back to F1 yesterday so they have had at least a year to see what solutions worked for other manufacturers and designed their engine accordingly....

[mclaren111]

The rules should be applied equally accross the board.

If any team can develop for the entire year, all should be able to do so.

FIA at it's most idiotic again

[GPR-A duplicate2]

The rules should be applied equally accross the board.

If any team can develop for the entire year, all should be able to do so.

FIA at it's most idiotic again

I am repeating what I said on McLaren Honda 2015 thread.

Honda came late to the competition, it was their problem and I guess it was intentional to come late. Everyone knew about the new era that was going to come in F1 as it was not a secret and was announced a long time back. When Renault, Ferrari and Merc were in dark about what kind of PU architecture is the best and went ahead in their designs, Honda had the luxury to wait and see which architecture is the best, then copy it and create one. Whats more, they even had their hands on the PU that proved to be the best and were in THE BEST POSSIBLE POSITION to gain all advantages. They got to know all the possible problems of PU/Chassis integration, without themselves undergoing it whereas Merc, Ferrari and Renault had to learn through a hard year's experience.

Now to come and cry foul, looks pathetic on their faces. It's only fair to follow the same protocol that the other manufacturer's went through. Why should there be an exception? If they think they are world class and deserve to win, they will compete in the fairest way.

[raymondu999]

The rules say the teams can use their 2014 engines until they homologate their 32-token-upgraded 2015 engines.

If Honda has a 2014-homologated engine, they are subject to the same loophole. Sadly, they don't.

[raymondu999]

The rules say the teams can use their 2014 engines until they homologate their 32-token-upgraded 2015 engines.

If Honda has a 2014-homologated engine, they are subject to the same loophole. Sadly, they don't. And this is why it's fair - Honda had an extra year of free, token-unrestricted development anyway.

[CjC]

What is it with the FIA and writing a rule book, time and time again the snuff it up!! How do you not state that they wanted homolgation for February 28 2016 when you want homogation for February 28!!

Some good, valid points form the previous posts, especially the argument honda had the best PU to study at Mclaren.

What I think might be fairer is, honda homolgate for the 28th of Feburary, then are allowed the full development cycle of the next 5 years or what ever it is. So honda get the 32 tokens next year, where as merc, Ferrari and Renault get the step less amount of tokens, do you see where I'm coming from?

This wouldn't deter any other manufacturers from joining the sport.

As the rules are what they are now, what happens if VW for example join the grid in 5 years time and by then all the other engine suppliers have left in 6 years and we are left with just Ferrari and VW. Ferrari will have a super developed mark 6 PU and VW have a fresh off the design board mark 1 PU, fair?

The FIA would love that to happen again, an ultra dominant, untouchable both politically and technical Ferrari.

That'd be the end of Formula 1.

[f1316]

From what I've read here, the ruling is quite clear: the upshot is that you use a 2014 engine or a 2015 engine but when you switch is up to you.

But the press is still reporting otherwise:

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/30685450

"Renault, Ferrari and Mercedes can stagger improvements over the season if required."

"Following the latest FIA rule clarification, manufacturers in their second season are now able to implement their 32 development tokens over the course of the year, rather than having to do so before the season starts"

I hope everyone here is wrong and the press (autosport already implied the same) - I like the idea of continual development in increments rather than all or nothing - but the rules seem clear that this is not the case.

Fyi - whilst I appreciate the replies attempting to clarify that some of you have made - I'm still unclear exactly what is and isn't allowed in terms of development. There are various different versions floating around- both on here and in the media.

Kinda implies to me that, whilst some of us may have very strong opinions on what we think the rules say, the fia obviously haven't made their stance very clear (at least not publicly).

[raymondu999]

My point is - Honda had free reign on development in the past year. They were not restricted to tokens. That's far more potent than token-restricted development

[turbof1]

My point is - Honda had free reign on development in the past year. They were not restricted to tokens. That's far more potent than token-restricted development

That would be a fair assesment if the development came from an existing platform, like the other manufacturers being able to develop their 2014 ones.

It isn't - Honda has to start from scratch. They have some data on the mercedes pu, but they still have to start from almost nothing. The others have a full season of data on their pu's.

Remember, before 2014 the other manufacturers were just as well unrestricted.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

My point is - Honda had free reign on development in the past year. They were not restricted to tokens. That's far more potent than token-restricted development

That would be a fair assesment if the development came from an existing platform, like the other manufacturers being able to develop their 2014 ones.

It isn't - Honda has to start from scratch. They have some data on the mercedes pu, but they still have to start from almost nothing. The others have a full season of data on their pu's.

Remember, before 2014 the other manufacturers were just as well unrestricted.

It's one thing to be unrestricted while having no idea what your performance is OR what anyone else's performance is and it's another story to be unrestricted while knowing whats in the field and develop relative to that.

Having great deal of data of the best performing PU, is worth millions. Others' have taken a certain path and have traveled great distance and now are restricted to tune a portion of that, without any scope for doing something from scratch, especially when you know there is a big gap in performance to the best PU. At this stage, anyone would want to be in Honda's position and NOT in Ferrari or Renault's.

[Blackout]

So this means Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes can't bring more than one update* during the season if they start with the 2014 PU. The update simply consists on trasforming the 2014 PU in a 2015 PU using the tokens.
The PU is completely frozen once you homologate it*.
*exept reliability, cost saving etc...

Once homologated in accordance with a) or b) above, and except as permitted by (c)
below, no changes may be made to the design or construction of the homologated
parts for the duration of the homologation period laid out in Article 28.5 of the F1
Sporting Regulations.

The homologation period: 2014-2020

...

2015
Send FIA ver 2.0 and homologate on 10-03-15, using 10 tokens than can't be used again by 1.b

Send FIA ver 2.1 and homologate on 10-06-15, to reduce cost, by 1.c
Send FIA ver 2.2 and homologate on 15-09-15, using 10 tokens than can't be used again, by 1.b
...
Send to FIA the last PU of 2015, on 31-12, usin the last 12 tokens, by 1.b

the best of 2015 homologation

You're talking about this?

no changes may be made to the design or construction of the homologated parts

Can a manufacturer homologate just parts, instead of a whole PU? I dont think so.

[bonjon1979]

how can they say to Honda that they have to homologate by the 28th as per the intention of the rule ie it was supposed to say 2015 not 2014. But then allow the other teams to ignore the intention of the rule and allow them to stick to the literal letter of the rule. It's a massive contradiction.

The cars have can only use a homolgated PU. Engine supplies can bring the existing homolgated PU (ie 2014). If Honda don't homolgate then the car won't have a PU.

The existing teams can then use the tokens to update the PU during the season. They can homolgate at a tome of their choosing, presumably when they've used up their tokens.

The only contradiction is that Honda are already from scratch and are guaranteed to drop further back because they aren't allowed to develop their PU during the season.

I wonder if Honda would go quietly if the FIA offered that the engine as homologated for the 2015 season was the development engine , and for that reason they could use 5 without penalty as the other teams could in 2014

Indeed. If Whiting says a new engine has to conform to the same restrictions as the other new engines then Honda should have 5 PUs just like the other suppliers got when introducing a new PU.

Good point.

Thinking about it from another perspective all this is good news for Honda. The other manufacturers could've been starting the season with Engines that are fully updated with all 32 tokens used. As it stands, they will be competing against inferior Renault/Ferrari powerplants than they would be had those teams carried out all their upgrades in the off season. I still think that introducing new engines where 48% of the parts have been changed mid season is a hell of an ask. I guess they'll have to wait for the barcelona test day because there's no way they'll be able to do it on a Friday afternoon practice session.