Engine Unfreeze

[turbof1]

It's not as good as you might believe. They are in only allowed to one homologated power unit a time, but they can homologate as much as they want. That'll probably mean they'll have some updates on the power unit already in Melbourne. It also means that they can focus now on the updates they want to bring to Melbourne instead of the whole engine, enabling them to extract extra performance out of those parts instead of having to deal with all the allowed updates at once.

[bonjon1979]

It's not as good as you might believe. They are in only allowed to one homologated power unit a time, but they can homologate as much as they want. That'll probably mean they'll have some updates on the power unit already in Melbourne. It also means that they can focus now on the updates they want to bring to Melbourne instead of the whole engine, enabling them to extract extra performance out of those parts instead of having to deal with all the allowed updates at once.

This is so strange. If that's really what the fia are allowing then it's horrendous. It's basically, free development of 48% of the engine through the season. I guess the only thing that holds them back is the limit on the number of engines per season and the risk of introducing new engines with no testing.

[KeiKo403]

I think when people are discussing what's fair and unfair......great, that's your opinion.

Being fair counts for nothing in F1. Every Team wants an edge on the competition.
Honda need to have a homologated power unit pre 28 Feb 14. They don't have that and they must have a homologated PU for FP3 in Melbourne 2015. Once they homologate that's it. That's the rules....is it not!? Other manufatures PU's have already been homologated and therefore can start this season without updates.

Question is, PU manufatures have already spent millions working out how to best spend their 32 tokens and developing upgrades. By starting 2015 with a 2014 un-upgraded PU is only going to gaurentee that you won't do any better than last year. Why do that if you are Ferrari or Renault?

It's a mess! Could Sauber claim some form of damages compensation from Ferrari as they have paid for some of Ferrari's upgrades and they aren't getting them because Ferrari may want to release them later in the season while Sauber could be looking to start of 2015 with a couple of good points hauls and then try to manage the rest of their season.

[bonjon1979]

I think when people are discussing what's fair and unfair......great, that's your opinion.

Being fair counts for nothing in F1. Every Team wants an edge on the competition.
Honda need to have a homologated power unit pre 28 Feb 14. They don't have that and they must have a homologated PU for FP3 in Melbourne 2015. Once they homologate that's it. That's the rules....is it not!? Other manufatures PU's have already been homologated and therefore can start this season without updates.

Question is, PU manufatures have already spent millions working out how to best spend their 32 tokens and developing upgrades. By starting 2015 with a 2014 un-upgraded PU is only going to gaurentee that you won't do any better than last year. Why do that if you are Ferrari or Renault?

It's a mess! Could Sauber claim some form of damages compensation from Ferrari as they have paid for some of Ferrari's upgrades and they aren't getting them because Ferrari may want to release them later in the season while Sauber could be looking to start of 2015 with a couple of good points hauls and then try to manage the rest of their season.

I think what turbo is I timating is that teams can turn up with an upgraded PU and then continue to update through the season.

[Blackout]

It's not as good as you might believe. They are in only allowed to one homologated power unit a time, but they can homologate as much as they want. That'll probably mean they'll have some updates on the power unit already in Melbourne. It also means that they can focus now on the updates they want to bring to Melbourne instead of the whole engine, enabling them to extract extra performance out of those parts instead of having to deal with all the allowed updates at once.

I thought the same at he beginning... until I saw this:

Once homologated in accordance with a) or b) above, and except as permitted by (c)
below, no changes may be made to the design or construction of the homologated
parts for the duration of the homologation period laid out in Article 28.5 of the F1
Sporting Regulations.

Are we reading the same rulebook?

[Richard]

The PU is frozen when it is homologated. However the date of homolgation is not set. For instance, a team can turn up at the first race with a 2104 PU with 20 tokens of updates over the winter, then update the design with another 6 tokens on the second unit, then 4 tokens on the 3rd unit, then a final 2 tokens on the 4th unit, then homologate at the last race.

However Honda can't turn up with a 2014 PU so they have to homologate their 2105 PU before the season starts. By the end of 2016 Honda will have been allowed 25 tokens, the other teams will have had 57 tokens. If VW enter in 2016, they'll only be able to have 20 tokens for updates in 2017 and race against PUs with 77 tokens of development. So the more experienced suppliers are allowed to learn from experience while new entrants have greatly reduced scope to catch up or learn from their mistakes.

Also last year teams were allowed 5 PUs which is reduced to 4 PUs this year because the learning curve will allow the PU to be more reliable in the second year. However new entrants such as Honda don't get that year 1 benefit, their PU has to be as reliable an experienced supplier.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

However new entrants such as Honda don't get that year 1 benefit, their PU has to be as reliable an experienced supplier.

This one is really unfair for Honda. If FIA regulated that Honda follow the last year's protocol as followed by other manufacturers, they should be allowed 5 PUs for the season. Without any track experience, it would be hard for them to run their engine to optimum performance level. They will always have to run with conservative mode to extend the life of 4PUs for a whole season. That is sh**. Will Alonso never again will win another championship?

[siskue2005]

The PU is frozen when it is homologated. However the date of homolgation is not set. For instance, a team can turn up at the first race with a 2104 PU with 20 tokens of updates over the winter, then update the design with another 6 tokens on the second unit, then 4 tokens on the 3rd unit, then a final 2 tokens on the 4th unit, then homologate at the last race.

but i thought you cant do that?
as the 32 tokens should be upgraded at once and only once you can homologate?

they start with 2014 Engines and PUs
then they can upgrade their engine and pu with 32 tokens and then if done they have to homologate and that is it!

For instance, a team can turn up at the first race with a 2104 PU with 20 tokens of updates over the winter

You cant upgrade 20 tokens and race as that would mean you are racing with an Unhomologated design!
So when you upgrade u have to homologate (just once not more)

that is how i understood from james allen's article or am i understanding it wrong??

[siskue2005]

However new entrants such as Honda don't get that year 1 benefit, their PU has to be as reliable an experienced supplier.

This one is really unfair for Honda. If FIA regulated that Honda follow the last year's protocol as followed by other manufacturers, they should be allowed 5 PUs for the season. Without any track experience, it would be hard for them to run their engine to optimum performance level. They will always have to run with conservative mode to extend the life of 4PUs for a whole season. That is sh**. Will Alonso never again will win another championship?

They dont have a 2014 engine, so they cant use it at the start like other teams and then upgrade later and homologate once
as u can only homologate ONE engine in a year

[Richard]

The PU is frozen when it is homologated. However the date of homolgation is not set. For instance, a team can turn up at the first race with a 2104 PU with 20 tokens of updates over the winter, then update the design with another 6 tokens on the second unit, then 4 tokens on the 3rd unit, then a final 2 tokens on the 4th unit, then homologate at the last race.

but i thought you cant do that?
as the 32 tokens should be upgraded at once and only once you can homologate?

they start with 2014 Engines and PUs
then they can upgrade their engine and pu with 32 tokens and then if done they have to homologate and that is it!

You cant upgrade 20 tokens and race as that would mean you are racing with an Unhomologated design!
So when you upgrade u have to homologate (just once not more)

that is how i understood from james allen's article or am i understanding it wrong??

Mea culpa - I think you are probably correct because of the rule that they can only use a homolgated engine in a race.

28.5 Only power units which have been homologated by the FIA in accordance with Appendix 4 may be used at an Event during the 2014-2020 Championship seasons.

Hang on a second, I can't see anything that says homolgation can only take place once a season. Only this bit:

Once homologated in accordance with a) or b) above, and except as permitted by (c) below, no changes may be made to the design or construction of the homologated parts for the duration of the homologation period laid out in Article 28.5 of the F1 Sporting Regulations.

One would expect 28.5 would refer to the homolgation period being one season, but it doesn't (see quote above).

So it seems the FIA haven't defined a homolgation period, just like they didn't specify a homolgation date.

[diffuser]

On http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/30685450

It says
"Honda, which has returned to F1 this season following an absence of six years, has the option of lodging a protest against Ferrari, who discovered the loophole that has led to the change in interpretation of the rules by the FIA."

So I wonder what happens if Honda Files a protest just before FP3 in Australia ? Nobody will be allowed any engine mods till it's ruled on ?

I mean, that's what I'd do. I'd wait till someone was ready to apply an update(guess-a-mate), file a protest and block it for as long as possible. Usually major upgrades happen around the first euro race (Spain). If you get lucky..maybe some aero updates are dependent on PU changes(2 birds with 1 stone).

[McMrocks]

On http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/30685450

It says
"Honda, which has returned to F1 this season following an absence of six years, has the option of lodging a protest against Ferrari, who discovered the loophole that has led to the change in interpretation of the rules by the FIA."

So I wonder what happens if Honda Files a protest just before FP3 in Australia ? Nobody will be allowed any engine mods till it's ruled on ?

I mean, that's what I'd do. I'd wait till someone was ready to apply an update(guess-a-mate), file a protest and block it for as long as possible. Usually major upgrades happen around the first euro race (Spain). If you get lucky..maybe some aero updates are dependent on PU changes(2 birds with 1 stone).

By doing so they ensure the protest will fail. That's not fair business

[KeiKo403]

However new entrants such as Honda don't get that year 1 benefit, their PU has to be as reliable an experienced supplier.

This one is really unfair for Honda. If FIA regulated that Honda follow the last year's protocol as followed by other manufacturers, they should be allowed 5 PUs for the season. Without any track experience, it would be hard for them to run their engine to optimum performance level. They will always have to run with conservative mode to extend the life of 4PUs for a whole season. That is sh**. Will Alonso never again will win another championship?

But last year it was the Team who got 5 PU's per driver/side of the garage for Caterham/Marussia. So for 2 years in a row, McLaren get 5 PU's per driver. Lotus could argue that they worked with Renault last season and now they've switched to Merc that they too need the extra PU as they don't know how chassis and PU will combine for reliability.

I do understand your point though. I'm just playing devils advocate.

[siskue2005]

Once homologated in accordance with a) or b) above, and except as permitted by (c) below, no changes may be made to the design or construction of the homologated parts for the duration of the homologation period laid out in Article 28.5 of the F1 Sporting Regulations.

One would expect 28.5 would refer to the homolgation period being one season, but it doesn't (see quote above).

So it seems the FIA haven't defined a homolgation period, just like they didn't specify a homolgation date.

Lets put everything out can we
1. You can only homologate ONCE
2. If you homologate once you cant do it again that year or bring any upgrades(the above quote)
3. You cant race a UNhomoloagted design (which means you cant bring a 20 token upgrade and then bring the rest later and homologate in the last race) coz if you bring a 20 token upgrade it is different from what the 2014 Homologated engine and that translates to UNhomologated desgin which will be illegal OR you have to homologate then and there to race it.
4. So You can race a 2014 engine and PU which was homologated last year until you have a new engine with 32 token(all tokens for 2015) homologated (that is the date the FIA failed to specify)
5. So in effect you can race with a 2014 engine and then bring the 32 token upgrade whenever you like during the season!
6. So the teams have to introduce the 32 tokens at once and homologate probably at Spanish Grand Prix when there is major aero upgrade
7. they cant upgrade it for the entire season, they can only do it once
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/01/a ... ules-mean/

This is just a delay in 2015 homologation as opposed to a specific date (which the FIA failed again)
So everyone would run with 2014 engine until they get a 2015 enigne homologated....and that is the reason precisely for HONDA not allowed the upgrade as they dont have 2014 engine!

[Richard]

Lets put everything out can we
1. You can only homologate ONCE

Where is that in the regs?