Engine Unfreeze

[mika vs michael]

It is not unfair to Honda. Honda is the only manufacturer that is able to develop the engine through 2014 while the others stopped at 28/2/2014 (except for changes due to reliability issues). After all in 2016 rules may change again...

[brzt]

It is massively unfair to Honda. They have to run with 2014 rules while everyone else is running with 2015 rules.

[Steven]

It is massively unfair to Honda. They have to run with 2014 rules while everyone else is running with 2015 rules.

I agree it is unfair, and the result only of a mistake at the FIA, having not updated the homologation deadline.

However, Honda is not competing under the 2014 rules, they have the same ruleset to work with, only they have to finalise their engines earlier than the others.

[diffuser]

We shouldn't have 2 formulas in 1 year.

The same rules should apply to everyone. Apply Rules from 2014 to only 1 PU in 2015 while everyone else falls in-line with 2015 rules seems strange.

I think what they should do (and they probably could have done this back in December), is have Honda homogenate their PU for Feb 1st then give them their tokens for the rest of the year.

[SectorOne]

So what about this meeting that happened yesterday where they talked about introducing a new engine in 17 or 18 where the target would be roughly 1,000 horsepower?

If it´s done through traditional means and even more improved ERS systems i think it can be something that could step up the sport even more in terms of entertainment. They have trouble putting down 800 horses so imagine the show we get when they have to deal with another 200 horses.

Not to mention the sheer insanity we will see once the car is not traction limited
400 anyone? I think it´s within reach given DF/drag hovers around what we have now.

Source, Ted talking about it at the end, approx 4:10

[mikeerfol]

Here's your answer mate http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117300

However, there is a belief that the 1000hp target could be achieved without the need for a total redesign of the current turbo V6 engines nor a complete new engine formula - which would be expensive.


Instead, an increase to the fuel flow rate, higher revs, minor design tweaks such as to crank firing, plus increasing the maximum fuel allowance beyond 100kg, would be enough for the current engines to hit the 1000hp target.

[diffuser]

Here's your answer mate http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117300

However, there is a belief that the 1000hp target could be achieved without the need for a total redesign of the current turbo V6 engines nor a complete new engine formula - which would be expensive.


Instead, an increase to the fuel flow rate, higher revs, minor design tweaks such as to crank firing, plus increasing the maximum fuel allowance beyond 100kg, would be enough for the current engines to hit the 1000hp target.

The max fuel allowance isn't necessary....it just makes it possible to use the extra power longer.


Personally I'd like to see them get more power by using the same or less fuel and more electrical power.

[Manoah2u]

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11501078687 ... g---report

"At the meeting in Geneva ... the FIA decided to reconsider its position with regards to Honda.

"Taking note of their (Honda's) concerns, the question remains open and will probably be defined at a later meeting between the manufacturers that has been set in two weeks time."

Chinchero continued: "There are also rumours of a 'plan B' for the Japanese.

[turbof1]

A few clarifications:
-@Siskue2005: you are quoting this piece to argumentate that they are only allowed to homologate once:

Once homologated in accordance with a) or b) above, and except as permitted by (c)
below, no changes may be made to the design or construction of the homologated
parts for the duration of the homologation period laid out in Article 28.5 of the F1
Sporting Regulations.

The critical part of the quoted piece is "for the duration of the homologation period laid out in article 28.5". However, 28.5 does NOT state the homologation period.

Only power units which have been homologated by the FIA in accordance with Appendix 4 may be used at an Event during the 2014-2020 Championship seasons.

The 2014-2020 period is the period in which these rules are active. You are only allowed to use a homologated power unit in 2014 to 2020, but how long your homologation period goes is not specified. It's very, very crucial to make that distinction.

Since no homologation period is specified, the quoted piece of regulation is undermined. the homologation period of the engine can 4 months, a year, 3 days, a hour. Each time you homologate an engine, a new period simply starts, without any regulation text telling you how long it has be homologated.

-We already discussed this I believe in the return to V10 engines thread, but it basically confirms what some of us were telling: you can easily get a 1000hp power unit and more sound with the current platform, which needs a higher fuel flow and more revs (once fuel flow is high enough). I'd personally keep the total fuel limit since it still forces efficiency.

-Honda will probably try to lobby now for the same rights as the others, so the same 32 tokens. A fair deal would be not to give them all of them, since others are going to introduce tokens before the season starts. I think a gentlemen's agreement needs to be made, where the others specify how many tokens they'll use before the season starts, which Honda then gets substracted from their 32 tokens.

Perhaps their plan b is either to submit a complaint in Melbourne, or go to court.

[Richard]

Actually the homolgation period is explicitly defined in 28.5. The "period" defines when the homolgation rules will be enforced, ie from 2014-2020.

The confusion arises because common sense expects a reference to homolgation updates once per season somewhere in the regs but it's not there. So we see a similar word "period" and turn to 28.5 in expectation. Then we get confused when 28.5 is talking about something else.

I suspect it'll be resolved behind closed doors before we get to Melbourne. Honda can only lodge a protest if another team is breaking a rule, but they can't protest about a rule that doesn't exist. It's not the other teams' fault that a clause is missing from the regs.

IMHO this is an issue of establishing common sense and that needs consensus. I also expect the outcome will be determined by the FIA using their arbitrary powers in Appendix 4 - 1c to ensure the Honda PU can "fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologated power units".

[pob]

If it's possible to introduce more than one performance upgrade this season, under what regulation would Honda be stopped from doing the same as other manufacturers? As far as I can see, there's nothing specifically to say that you can't upgrade in the first season.

Would any of the manufacturers even consider staggering upgrades across the season if the regulation saying "a manufacturer may homologate no more than one specification of power unit" was enforced properly, as all the manufacturer's drivers would have to change PU with each upgrade, with no possibility of using old specifications?

I'm still hoping that the reports of it being possible to stagger upgrades across the season are just down to misunderstanding Charlie's clarification note.

[Moose]

If it's possible to introduce more than one performance upgrade this season, under what regulation would Honda be stopped from doing the same as other manufacturers? As far as I can see, there's nothing specifically to say that you can't upgrade in the first season.

Would any of the manufacturers even consider staggering upgrades across the season if the regulation saying "a manufacturer may homologate no more than one specification of power unit" was enforced properly, as all the manufacturer's drivers would have to change PU with each upgrade, with no possibility of using old specifications?

I'm still hoping that the reports of it being possible to stagger upgrades across the season are just down to misunderstanding Charlie's clarification note.

The issue is that Honda don't have any tokens to spend, so their first (non token based) engine must be provided on time. That said, "on time" is Feb 28 2014, so they can't do that. Clearly some rule has to be broken for anything to make sense. The FIA are likely best off saying "you all get treated the same".

[pob]

Yes, common sense would say Honda have no tokens to spend this year, but where in the regulations does it say that?

[Moose]

Yes, common sense would say Honda have no tokens to spend this year, but where in the regulations does it say that?

The technical regulations state that you're allowed to edit 48% of your engine that was homologated for 2014. Honda didn't homologate an engine for 2014, so they fall under the new engine regulations and get no tokens.

[pob]

The sporting regulations point to the table with the token values in the technical regulations, nowhere does it say that the tokens used has to relate to a power unit from 2014, it could just as much relate to Honda's opening 2015 PU. That also begs the question, what if Honda had homologated at the end of last year, or what if a new manufacturer wants to enter midseason?

(edit: All of that would have been moot if there had been an annual homologation date written in the regs)