Engine Unfreeze

[raymondu999]

Forget 32 - Honda had an unlimited number of tokens to spend THROUGH 2014 and UP TO the first race of 2015.

So did the others before their first race in 2014

Yes - as did Honda, too.

In other news - I think it's important to remember that 32tokens denotes the number of parts - not the performance. If you design 2 turbos, 1 with 10% more performance than their 2014 units, 1 with 50% more performance thantheir 2014 units, changing to either turbo will still cost the same amount of tokens.

[McLobby]

Reading the BBC article clarifies a lot of things.

We all thought that Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari had to start with last years PU until they were ready to use all 32 tokens at once when they would homologate.

Obviously we were wrong, since they are free to use any amount of their 32 tokens they want at the start of the season (or at any other given point) and homologate when they wish even as late as Suzuka.

That's like like homologating twice or even more during the season.

With that in mind the Honda restriction and Charlie Whiting's quotes, seems even more ridiculous and even more unfair than we first thought.

How funny the following popular quotes sound now?

''you can't race a PU that is not homologated''

'' Honda can choose to homologate later, but until then they will be missing the races, since they don't have a homologated PU to race with''

And James Allen also got it wrong;

Honda will be subject to the same rules as the others were for their first season – i.e. they must homologate by the end of February (next month). If they did not, they would effectively have two development windows in one year and that would not be sportingly fair.

Yeah, right!

Anyway I am glad McLaren Honda succeed at putting some sense to the FIA clowns. And now I am just looking forward to Jerez.

[Blackout]

Reading the BBC article clarifies a lot of things.

We all thought that Mercedes, Renault and Ferrari had to start with last years PU until they were ready to use all 32 tokens at once when they would homologate.

We all?
No.

[mclaren_mircea]

Very important news!!!
Honda has won the fight. They will develop the engine.

Source: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/30860212

[lebesset]

another piece of FIA incompetence perhaps ? honda can have the average number of updates used by their competitors at the first race ?
so the other 3 get together and agree on no updates for the first race
so mercedes 0
renault 0
ferrari 0

hang about and let me find my calculator to work out the average

all the FIA had to do was to nominate a minimum ...bit technical that

[R_Redding]

so mercedes 0 renault 0 ferrari 0

It could also be quite the reverse..

I'd put every penny I have on Mercedes turning up with a full 16-32 token updated PU , especially as Williams and Lotus anf SFI will want , and may have contracts specifying a 2015 spec PU.

So if Ferrari and Renault turn up with a 2014 spec in Aus ... Honda will get a bonus.

Rob

[iotar__]

They changed it again.
1. What a surprise (pat on the back)
2. I bet it wasn't for free. F1 is a cheap marketplace full of cheap gimmicks for the masses, like new planned tyres that are there to visually cover another engine change.
3. Average of other manufacturer's tokens, now gentlemen let's play tokens game. Why other teams should decide Honda's development cycle? More to the point why some teams' development cycle should decide changes of rules?
3. What rule or loophole was this decision based on Mr Whiting? As if you needed another proof of arbitrary decision making in F1.

Wolff L’Equipe interview bits (posted and translated in Merc 2015 car thread) while not exactly clear or definite suggest gradual development (with some 2016 focus alternatives), I wonder how many token would that be? So Honda needs to start testing and wait for others to decide, makes perfect sense . Now, what's better: our improvements or blocking competition? Of course for someone one token may be more important than someone else's two tokens, depending on development cycle. Usual F1 mess.

[eddie]

Forget 32 - Honda had an unlimited number of tokens to spend THROUGH 2014 and UP TO the first race of 2015.

So what, mercedes have been developing their engine for 2014 for like how long now?...4+ years without any token limitation

[dans79]

Has anyone seen a clear indication of how many 2015 spec motors a manufacture can have? Can they have only 1, or can they have up to 4?

Why only 4? They can have as many as they want if they're willing to take the penalty.

I was working under the premise that they wouldn't want to take the penalty.

[Nickel]

another piece of FIA incompetence perhaps ? honda can have the average number of updates used by their competitors at the first race ?
so the other 3 get together and agree on no updates for the first race
so mercedes 0
renault 0
ferrari 0

hang about and let me find my calculator to work out the average

all the FIA had to do was to nominate a minimum ...bit technical that

You've got it backwards. Honda get the average number of unused tokens at the first race.

They changed it again.

3. Average of other manufacturer's tokens, now gentlemen let's play tokens game. Why other teams should decide Honda's development cycle? More to the point why some teams' development cycle should decide changes of rules?
3. What rule or loophole was this decision based on Mr Whiting? As if you needed another proof of arbitrary decision making in F1.

It seems you got a bit excited and had 2x point number 3. That being said, they're both to do with the same thing. I believe it comes down to the rule stating that the FIA, in it's sole discretion and upon consulting with other teams, will decide on a fair and equitable solution. The part which was unfair for Honda was the exploitation of the homologation date loophole to their exclusion. Thus, by basing their level of inclusion on the number of tokens other manufacturers have in reserve for in season development (the part not intended by the rules), you arrive at something of a level playing field. All parties have a similar sized loophole to exploit.

[lebesset]

another piece of FIA incompetence perhaps ? honda can have the average number of updates used by their competitors at the first race ?
so the other 3 get together and agree on no updates for the first race
so mercedes 0
renault 0
ferrari 0

hang about and let me find my calculator to work out the average

all the FIA had to do was to nominate a minimum ...bit technical that

You've got it backwards. Honda get the average number of unused tokens at the first race.

They changed it again.

doh ! just read the BBC article and it is clear you are correct ...and makes a lot more sense

3. Average of other manufacturer's tokens, now gentlemen let's play tokens game. Why other teams should decide Honda's development cycle? More to the point why some teams' development cycle should decide changes of rules?
3. What rule or loophole was this decision based on Mr Whiting? As if you needed another proof of arbitrary decision making in F1.

It seems you got a bit excited and had 2x point number 3. That being said, they're both to do with the same thing. I believe it comes down to the rule stating that the FIA, in it's sole discretion and upon consulting with other teams, will decide on a fair and equitable solution. The part which was unfair for Honda was the exploitation of the homologation date loophole to their exclusion. Thus, by basing their level of inclusion on the number of tokens other manufacturers have in reserve for in season development (the part not intended by the rules), you arrive at something of a level playing field. All parties have a similar sized loophole to exploit.

[chenpei24730]

another piece of FIA incompetence perhaps ? honda can have the average number of updates used by their competitors at the first race ?
so the other 3 get together and agree on no updates for the first race
so mercedes 0
renault 0
ferrari 0

hang about and let me find my calculator to work out the average

all the FIA had to do was to nominate a minimum ...bit technical that

“Friday's ruling will allow Honda to change a given amount of its engine calculated by the average of the number of tokens unused by the other manufacturers by the time of the first race in Australia on 16 March.”


It was "unused". So I believe Honda can use almost the same amount of tokens as others, because I believe Mercedes will use tokens throuhout the whole season and Ferrari and Renault will only use a few tokens before 3.16

[Raleigh]

It was "unused". So I believe Honda can use almost the same amount of tokens as others, because I believe Mercedes will use tokens throuhout the whole season and Ferrari and Renault will only use a few tokens before 3.16

I'm not sure this will be the case. Ferrari and Renault are likely to have used a lot of their tokens already changing overall PU architecture, Mercedes is only refining their existing (and very successful) engine layout and will probably have the most unused tokens at the first race (God help everyone else if Mercedes have found 32 tokens worth of improvements over last years engine already).

You might turn out to be right though, Mercedes is likely to have more confidence in their upgrades because they have more experience with their layout, enough perhaps to use their tokens early and reap the advantages as quickly as possible.

[pob]

Before this was all thrown into the air with multiple upgrades possible, there were rumours that Renault wouldn't use all of their 2015 tokens, so I think it unlikely for them to use all their tokens at the first race.

[Sevach]

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merce ... old-engine

I don't know what to make of this...