2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Would be interesting to know when the power boost mode has been used.

You can see that Ferrari were very crazy in their waste gate design. They used a butterfly valve... 8) For those of us who know, of all the common types of valves, it is very difficult to control transient flow with a butterfly valve. If the valve was a regular seat valve, you can profile the plunger to give proportional flow with travel and save yourself a tonne of control system headaches, but for a butterfly valve you have to use a "feed forward" control technique, meaning you do an actual test on the valve at different positions first then record the resulting flows and pressure drops Vs valve position, then put that resulting table in your control system. It is like Ferrari just said, screw controlling boost with the waste-gate altogethe!
We can do that with the MGUH! Let's just use a God damned butterfly vale in there! We need as much flow as we can get through there!
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gruntguru
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
gruntguru wrote:Removing the exhaust backpressure ie going from about 2.5-3.0 Bar abs to 1.0 abs will reduce pumping MEP by 1.5 to 2.0 bar, resulting in a similar increase in BMEP. If BMEP is 36 bar, that would be a 4%-5% power increase.
VE and scavenge ratio will also increase but won't produce any power increase.
surely ?? .....
if the exhaust pressure is dropped from eg 3 bar to 1 bar by wastegate engagement the boost must similarly be dropped to maintain massflow and AFR (at whatever optimally efficient value was already in use)

when the boost is so dropped there will be little or no gain in crankshaft power though the supercharging power will much less (helpful in this electric supercharging mode) and this required 'turbo' rpm will be less, helpful as the turbine is now a burden

electric driving of the 'turbo' (fully or partially) will anyway be a normal, frequently used, mode and at some times it will pay to forgo mgu-h generation

so, is there such an abnormal '1 shot' electric mode that will give this notional greatest (temporary) total power/acceleration ?
if boost is kept high (electrically driven) with exhaust dropped to ambient by wastegate the ICE acts somewhat as an air motor but the inevitable extra air massflow (by raising of the AFR above the optimal efficiency value) will degrade ICE efficiency
If the "Emergency Mode" runs the same intake pressure as normal mode, the AFR will be similar. Airflow will increase due to increased scavenge but trapped mass will not change significantly. In this scenario the recip is no more an "air motor" than it would usually be at the same boost. What has changed is the exhaust pumping work will be reduced along the lines mentioned in my previous post.

It may be that boost is higher or lower in emergency mode. Higher boost would allow more energy flow from the ES to the wheels via the "air motor". Lower boost might be necessary to limit electrical drain or to trim AFR.
je suis charlie

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Using the egine as an air motor is a nice idea but it will work only in part because a four stroke engine's valve timing is different. You can only get propulsion from the compressed air on the intake stroke.... Then you have to do some fluid dynamics calculstions to see if the air will push with sufficient force on a piston moving down at high speeds.
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ringo
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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I am not understanding the air motor talk.

I was thinking more allong the lines that the compressor will be like an electric super charger. Boost will increase and fuel will be injected to match. I figure as much that there will be limitations with the linear equation for mass flow below 10500rpm, but there is still some advantage to be had with the electric supercharging.

Hmm.. this just occurred to me. Just going out on a limb here..

Is it possible to over batch fuel at low engine speeds into individual cylinders as a get around to the fuel flow restriction?

For example lets say at 10,500rpm we are limited to 100kg/hr. but at 5,000rpm its down to say 50kg/hr right..
What would happen if i split 50kg/hr among 4 cylinders instead of 8? Imagine at lower speeds i have more time to manipulate.
It sounds like it wouldn't make a difference.. but if it was possible to do some kind of accumulative batching to some cylinders at given instances it should be possible to go over the fuel flow limit...


And as another idea.. this time more to directly dumping more fuel than permited. What if there was an accumulator in the fuel rail.. Or even in the injectors! (some huge injectors that are able store fuel). All this trickery would be after the flow meter.
Image
A backpressure control valve would be on the fuel return. The engine management would manipulate this valve to disguise the storage of fuel in the accumalative fuel rail..
Mercedes for instance would use such technology to have a power advantage. It would work very well also at tracks that don't require the full 100kg of fuel. If a track requires 70kg, that extra 30 can be stored and carefully injected over the race distance giving a power advantage.
For Sure!!

wuzak
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Ringo, we discussed this before. There is a rule that specifically prohibits any system that can store fuel to be used to increase fuel flow above what is allowed.

gruntguru
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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PlatinumZealot wrote:Using the egine as an air motor is a nice idea but it will work only in part because a four stroke engine's valve timing is different. You can only get propulsion from the compressed air on the intake stroke.... Then you have to do some fluid dynamics calculstions to see if the air will push with sufficient force on a piston moving down at high speeds.
You are overcomplicating this. Whatever pressure drop exists across the intake valve, will be the same under NA and boosted conditions.

In rough terms, every 1 bar increase in supercharge pressure, reduces pumping loss by 1 bar (PMEP) and so increases BMEP by 1 bar. (This takes no account of the extra air-fuel available for combustion which is a seperate issue and produces a much greater increase in BMEP). This energy is not free. It comes from the crankshaft of a supercharged engine and the turbine of a turbocharged engine. If exhaust backpressure of a turbo were to also increase by 1 bar, the cost would be approximately neutral - MEP gained on the intake stroke would be lost on the exhaust stroke.
je suis charlie

gruntguru
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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ringo wrote:I am not understanding the air motor talk.

I was thinking more allong the lines that the compressor will be like an electric super charger. Boost will increase and fuel will be injected to match. I figure as much that there will be limitations with the linear equation for mass flow below 10500rpm, but there is still some advantage to be had with the electric supercharging.
Yes it is an electric supercharger, but don't think in terms of a boost increase. Think of the compressor running at the same pressure but driven by the MGUH instead of the turbine. No backpressure on the engine means less pumping energy for the piston to push the exhaust gas out.
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J.A.W.
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Quite right G-G, since it amounts to a heat/pressure train in the working fluid & then power losses all the way..
.. so - even if it may possibly be expedient to 'rob Peter to pay Paul'.. for a racing advantage.. it costs efficiency..

Now - if you have a comparative surplus to blow.. ..due to efficiency/conservation elsewhere.. go for it..
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Facts Only
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Ferrari Turbo Layout Analysis

The layout of the Ferrari Turbo has been bugging me for a while, especially the intercooler positioning. Something that Scarbs said about a 'reverse compressor' jogged my memory though of a turbo I have seen before that could explain the mismatch in my head.
Some good pictures of the Intercoolers in the Marussia auction helped as well. So anyway, here goes with how I think the Ferrari Turbo is laid out (and it is pretty neatly packaged).
First up is a picture of the intercooler from the Marussia auction showing where the compressor feeds into the intercooler, which is right in the middle of the intercooler unit:
Image

If this is annotated onto the engine layout with my original picture of where the turbine housing is there is a clear mismatch, the compressor is definitely not feeding straight from the front into the intercooler as the intercooler is much higher:
Image

This reminded me how Audi use a 90ยฐ bend on the exit of the Le Man car Turbo to point the compressor exit forward. Although the picture below shows a twin exit Iโ€™m sure Ferrari is using a single exit pointed forward at 90ยฐ, if this exit was on top of the compressor it would align with the intercooler entry:
Image

How is the air entering the turbo? I have seen this side entry turbo before on a Ford double compressor wheel turbo, I have blanked out the front wheel on the picture below to show the side entry compressor.
Image

I believe Ferrari are using the backwards facing compressor wheel with twin side air entry (for equal wheel pressure). This means that they can then put the MGUH on the back of the wheel but in front of the Turbo in the engine โ€˜Vโ€™ just under the intercooler:
So I could get this correct in my head and demonstrate it better I did a rough CAD model which I have broken down below (please excuse the piss-poor surface modelling but I was in a hurry)
This picture shows just the compressor housing looking from the rear of the car, the twin entries feed air onto the front of the backwards facing wheel and the volute exit bends 90ยฐ to point forwards;
Image

This image shows the compressor from the top, downwards is rearwards:
Image

The next picture show how the intercooler is mated to the compressor:
Image

And this picture shows the twin entry ducts that mate to the twin exit airbox seen in the Ferrar F14T Thread:
Image

Also in the above picture is the MGUH which is on the back of the compressor wheel but on the front of the turbo unit below the intercooler exit, this picture shows the layout in side view (right equals back of car):
Image

Lastly are two pictures of the complete layout with the turbine housing in place connected via a short shaft to the front of the compressor wheel with its twin entries:
Image
Image

From the available pictures and my own knowledge of these Turbocharger I have tried to get the sizes about right and proportional but these models are very simple and so not accurate.
I may be wrong on the layout but to me this explains most of the positioning and parts we can see.
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Facts Only
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Also I have just noticed that the compressor volute is rotating in the wrong direction compared to the turbo but this doesn't affect the layout.
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gruntguru
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Great info and lots of hard work there FO.

Ferrari seems to have created a lot of work for themselves along with some possible airflow compromises. All for the sake of some minor packaging advantages.
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wuzak
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Having not seen the actualy unit we cannot be sure, but rumours suggest that the MGU sits between turbo and compressor on the Ferrari.

Magneti Marelli showed a MGU fitted between turbine and compressor a couple of years ago. MM supply the MGUs to Ferrari.

http://www.auto123.com/ArtImages/147452 ... inline.jpg

The compressor inlet would be similar to the Renault concept from before last season.

http://twwhlspls.com/wp-content/uploads ... _f1_04.jpg

Nice work otherwise.

I think the image of the Audi compressor outlets show what would be possible with exhausts mounted in teh vee and Mercedes' split turbo.

The exhausts, possibly log type, fitted in the vee feeding the turbine. The MGUH would be fitted as far forward as possible, right behind the compressor. The two outlets of the compressor would then bend back to an air to water intercooler on each side, mounted alongside the inlets.

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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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wuzak wrote:Having not seen the actualy unit we cannot be sure, but rumours suggest that the MGU sits between turbo and compressor on the Ferrari.
From my experience of work on MGUH design I believe there isn't enough length in there, the packaging doesn't appear to work and I've never seen any data to suggest it is in the middle, only rumour.
The high outlet of the compressor also suggests an effort to clear something right in front of the wheel, if the MGUH isn't there a front entry compressor would be better for efficiency but they haven't done this.
wuzak wrote:Magneti Marelli showed a MGU fitted between turbine and compressor a couple of years ago. MM supply the MGUs to Ferrari.

http://www.auto123.com/ArtImages/147452 ... inline.jpg
This shows how long a mid mounted MGUH turbo would need to be and would push the Turbine housing too far back. Honeywell supply the rest of the turbo so I doubt Marelli are driving the packaging.
wuzak wrote:The compressor inlet would be similar to the Renault concept from before last season.

http://twwhlspls.com/wp-content/uploads ... _f1_04.jpg
Are you sure? It doesn't explain the twin inlets from the airbox as seen below. Do you have any pictures?

Image
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wuzak
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Facts Only wrote:
wuzak wrote:Having not seen the actualy unit we cannot be sure, but rumours suggest that the MGU sits between turbo and compressor on the Ferrari.
From my experience of work on MGUH design I believe there isn't enough length in there, the packaging doesn't appear to work and I've never seen any data to suggest it is in the middle, only rumour.
The high outlet of the compressor also suggests an effort to clear something right in front of the wheel, if the MGUH isn't there a front entry compressor would be better for efficiency but they haven't done this.
Part of the rumpur was that he compressor was in the vee, but this would either make it small or cause the whole unit to be too high. So you may be right on the MGUH position.

Facts Only wrote:
wuzak wrote:Having not seen the actualy unit we cannot be sure, but rumours suggest that the MGU sits between turbo and compressor on the Ferrari.
From my experience of work on MGUH design I believe there isn't enough length in there, the packaging doesn't appear to work and I've never seen any data to suggest it is in the middle, only rumour.
The high outlet of the compressor also suggests an effort to clear something right in front of the wheel, if the MGUH isn't there a front entry compressor would be better for efficiency but they haven't done this.
wuzak wrote:
wuzak wrote:The compressor inlet would be similar to the Renault concept from before last season.

http://twwhlspls.com/wp-content/uploads ... _f1_04.jpg
Are you sure? It doesn't explain the twin inlets from the airbox as seen below. Do you have any pictures?

http://i.imgur.com/JP53BWY.jpg
I'd suggest that the twin inlets straddle the outlet and then go to a inlet area similar to the Renault's.

This area acts like an airbox. Though I would have thought that advantage may have been gained by feeding one side of the air inlet to create some pre-swirl before entering the compressor.

wuzak
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Also, on your diagram the inlet and outlet seem to be in the same plane.

The inlet, if it is between the compressor and turbine, will be behind the volute and outlet.

The solution would be similar if the inlet was between MGUH and compressor - in both cases the inlet area will have a shaft running through it.