2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[dren]

New combustion chamber, turbine, compressor, & exhaust system concept (log style?)

The principal changes involve the internal combustion engine, turbocharger and batter,The ICE will have a new combustion chamber, exhaust system concept and variable trumpets, as permitted by the 2015 regulations. The compressor is more efficient, while the energy recovery systems are able to deal with more severe usage.

[FW17]

Firstly the MGU-H is not necessarily 160bhp, that's the max output of the MGU-K. We believe Ferrari are lacking in MGU-H recovery anyway so likely it will be much smaller than the MGUK

Secondly it wont necessarily have a water jacket, I know for a fact that 'in stator' water tubes are now being used in F1 so an outer water jacket is not needed and even if it was they add very little to the diameter.

Thirdly just throwing some guestimated numbers into a post and saying that there is no space from an MGU-H isn't information, its just random speculation. Do you have any pictures/drawings/photos or first hand experience to back this up?

THis is 80 HP Renault MGU unit from 2009-2013 period (specifically 2011)

Do you think the size has halved by now?

The size of 400 mm is close to what the length of the engine is.

[Facts Only]

Firstly the MGU-H is not necessarily 160bhp, that's the max output of the MGU-K. We believe Ferrari are lacking in MGU-H recovery anyway so likely it will be much smaller than the MGUK

Secondly it wont necessarily have a water jacket, I know for a fact that 'in stator' water tubes are now being used in F1 so an outer water jacket is not needed and even if it was they add very little to the diameter.

Thirdly just throwing some guestimated numbers into a post and saying that there is no space from an MGU-H isn't information, its just random speculation. Do you have any pictures/drawings/photos or first hand experience to back this up?

http://i.imgur.com/9Drct.jpg

THis is 80 HP Renault MGU unit from 2009-2013 period (specifically 2011)

Do you think the size has halved by now?

The size of 400 mm is close to what the length of the engine is.

I know from first hand experience (designing with both) that the current MGUH's are significantly smaller than even the 2013 80bhp KERS motors. They were 1st generation technology that were added to existing engines, the 2014 MGU-H's are 4th-5th generation designs that were designed to be fully integrated.
I spent a good few years of my life designing and packaging this stuff so I do know exactly what I'm talking about, I like to do analysis of the Ferrari layout as I had no involvement in it at all (so I'm not bound by NDA's), and its quote an interesting set-up.

[ME4ME]

What about Honda? It would be greatly appriciated if you could give us some technical insight, once images/footage appear. I truely love technical articles written by engineers themselves, rather than journalists (no offence to anyone)

[Facts Only]

What about Honda? It would be greatly appriciated if you could give us some technical insight, once images/footage appear. I truely love technical articles written by engineers themselves, rather than journalists (no offence to anyone)

There's currently so little to go on with Honda (aside from that rendered image that means nothing). Hopefully some pictures will emerge during testing but I suspect that McLaren will be a little bit more careful with hiding the Honda engines than they were with the Merc Unit (the first good pic of the Merc unit came from the McLaren garage in Melbourne).
My worry with Honda has been some seeming indecision, there was talk (I don't know whether it was true) that they were testing in a car both Merc style split turbo and a Renault style unit late last year. To me this means two things: 1) They don't know which one works best so don't understand the requirements as well as Merc (surely the benchmark) and 2) The engine itself hasn't been optimised around one style or the other which means whatever they decide it will already be somewhat compromised.
If that rumour wasn't true (and I feel it isn't) then we can sort of deduce that the initial development (back in 2012/13 was for a Renault style turbo as this was what was used for the CAD render (they would have used a very early CAD model as Merc did with their first renders) so if they did go to Merc style Turbo it would have only happened when they realised what Merc were doing in early 2014. This only leave then a year for a complete tear up of the engine top end and a total re-design of the Turbo, this (in my experience) will not be long enough to iron out all the problems and optimise the design.
I don't know which way they'll go, for me its 50:50, gut feeling is they may have to go for a better developed Renault style Turbo in 2015 while they sort out how to get a Merc style Turbo running for 2016. This will be slightly easier for them as they only have one team to deal with rather than 2-3-4 teams that Merc, Ferrari and Renault have to satisfy.

[ringo]

Even though technology has moved on, there is a fundamental physical limit to each motor architecture that you have to adhere to if you want it to have certain characteristics. So I don't expect a drastic reduction in the MGU size unless a different architecture is used.

[Mesteño]

I'm sure Mercedes was in same process of testing split/non split turbo. We don't know hoy many people are involved in Honda PU development, there was a rumour they have 30 hi-tech dynos in Sakura, and the words of many McLaren people (including Alonso) that the facilities are impressive and they are putting all their tech muscle on it. Alonso said he saw enough to convince him to make the change. That, and using Mercedes 2014 as benchmark, makes me optimistic.

[chip engineer]

Even though technology has moved on, there is a fundamental physical limit to each motor architecture that you have to adhere to if you want it to have certain characteristics. So I don't expect a drastic reduction in the MGU size unless a different architecture is used.

I think one point overlooked here is the RPM of the MGU. That picture was for an MGU-K that was probably designed for 30,000 RPM or less. I believe 120,000 RPM is allowed (and nearly that used) for the MGU-H. So only 1/4 the torque is needed for the same power. The size of motor required (just as for an ICE) is more dependent on torque than power (although cooling required depends on power).
The high MGU-H RPM does tend to call for a small diameter, so the length may still be fairly large.

[dero]

Even though technology has moved on, there is a fundamental physical limit to each motor architecture that you have to adhere to if you want it to have certain characteristics. So I don't expect a drastic reduction in the MGU size unless a different architecture is used.

I think one point overlooked here is the RPM of the MGU. That picture was for an MGU-K that was probably designed for 30,000 RPM or less. I believe 120,000 RPM is allowed (and nearly that used) for the MGU-H. So only 1/4 the torque is needed for the same power. The size of motor required (just as for an ICE) is more dependent on torque than power (although cooling required depends on power).
The high MGU-H RPM does tend to call for a small diameter, so the length may still be fairly large.

To take this a step further: Lorentz Force is limited by flux (dependent on and limited by magnetic material e.g. neodymium). Torque = ~ Lorentz Force * Diameter

cheers Stefan

[PlatinumZealot]

The units are not smaller. they are about the same size if not a slightly larger diameter. You can literally see them in the engine photos.

Ferrari Mgu-k beside the engine:



How do you explain this Mr. Facts man?

[gruntguru]

The discussion was size of the MGUH which is less than 120 kW and runs at 100,000+ rpm so has less than 1/10 of the torque of a direct drive MGUK.

[Juzh]

Renault claiming their 2015 PU will generate up to 850 bhp.
Unreliable source:
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/01/29/f ... d-up-2901/

also being reported by tj13 with no direct quotes.

[Facts Only]

The units are not smaller. they are about the same size if not a slightly larger diameter. You can literally see them in the engine photos.

Ferrari Mgu-k beside the engine:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ByPLKnhCIAAjKLs.jpg

How do you explain this Mr. Facts man?

You are telling me that a current 160bho MGUK is 'about the same size' as an old 80bhp V8 KERS motor and then asking me to explain why it not smaller? Umm because it's twice the power. You do see this right?

[gruntguru]

. . . "up to 850 bhp". . . .

So 850 would be the "balls out" emergency combat rating. Sounds about right - somewhere in the vicinity of Mercedes 2014.

[wuzak]

. . . "up to 850 bhp". . . .

So 850 would be the "balls out" emergency combat rating. Sounds about right - somewhere in the vicinity of Mercedes 2014.

Notleistung?

Used only when Rosberg and Hamilton are fighting?

Usually they stick to höchstzulässige dauerleistung and use kampfleistung on the odd occasion they have to fight Williams.