2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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FW17
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Facts Only wrote:I know from first hand experience (designing with both) that the current MGUH's are significantly smaller than even the 2013 80bhp KERS motors. They were 1st generation technology that were added to existing engines, the 2014 MGU-H's are 4th-5th generation designs that were designed to be fully integrated.
I spent a good few years of my life designing and packaging this stuff so I do know exactly what I'm talking about, I like to do analysis of the Ferrari layout as I had no involvement in it at all (so I'm not bound by NDA's), and its quote an interesting set-up.
During the pre-gp grid walk the Italian tv technical commentator ing.Giancarlo Bruno, has shown the Magneti Marelli MGU-H for 2014
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The 919 turbo generator does not look any smaller
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Spoutnik
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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I have a question, this year the RPM limit stay around 11 500 or they take more risks ?
And you have found a pic of the engines in the garage at Jerez please ?

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hollus
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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It is not about risks, there is almost nothing to gain except friction by going over 11500. The only reason they bother to go well above 10500 is to stay above 10500 after upshifts.
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Spoutnik wrote:I have a question, this year the RPM limit stay around 11 500 or they take more risks ?
And you have found a pic of the engines in the garage at Jerez please ?
The rules put a limit on fuel flow so even if you rev higher there is no power to gain. In fact you will only lose pwer as the frictional loses increase.
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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WilliamsF1 wrote:
Facts Only wrote:I know from first hand experience (designing with both) that the current MGUH's are significantly smaller than even the 2013 80bhp KERS motors. They were 1st generation technology that were added to existing engines, the 2014 MGU-H's are 4th-5th generation designs that were designed to be fully integrated.
I spent a good few years of my life designing and packaging this stuff so I do know exactly what I'm talking about, I like to do analysis of the Ferrari layout as I had no involvement in it at all (so I'm not bound by NDA's), and its quote an interesting set-up.
During the pre-gp grid walk the Italian tv technical commentator ing.Giancarlo Bruno, has shown the Magneti Marelli MGU-H for 2014
http://i.imgur.com/1RBnQKA.jpg

The 919 turbo generator does not look any smaller
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp-c ... porkii.jpg
Nice factual evidence there. Thanks for posting. :wink:
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Does the Merc Turbo architecture allow for a placement of a magnetic bearing? or is it a common feature across all the turbos used today?

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Magnetic bearings help achieve performance levels not possible with traditional rolling element bearing or oil film bearing technology. The concept of magnetic bearings has been around for at least 100 years. For many of those years, though, it was the stuff of university experiments and studies. However, as computing power has improved so has the viability of using magnetic bearings in commercial applications. The progression in magnetic bearing technology has followed the evolution of computer technology. The improvement in electronics and software has enabled better monitoring and control of motion. And magnetic bearing technology has been both the beneficiary of this technology improvement as well as the cause of certain applications becoming more likely to benefit from magnetic bearings. Especially for industrial machinery, increasingly environmental impact and the cost of energy are becoming the top priorities. In these applications, magnetic bearings can provide higher speed operation with greater reliability and efficiency.



However, magnetic bearings are not simply drop-in replacements for traditional rolling element or fluid film bearing designs. They are a little more complicated than that, but for the right application, well
worth the investment. In order to apply magnetic bearing technology to an application, it does take a significant amount of work for the machine designer working closely with the magnetic bearing supplier. To take advantage of the performance advantages of magnetic bearings, you can combine them with a high-speed brushless DC motor or permanent magnet motor. The combination of the two technologies creates a synergistic effect, allowing higher speed operation.




Advantages
Perhaps the greatest benefit of magnetic bearings is their ability to rotate at extremely high speeds. The bearings themselves are limited by the strength of the material to a peripheral speed limit of 180 m/s. For special applications, it is possible to increase this limit to 200 m/s with more exotic materials. Another factor is the nearly frictionless performance of the bearings which is the direct result of the rotor floating on a contact-free magnetic field. The elimination of moving mechanical components also means that there is no lubrication required
for the bearing system, which makes it a very clean system to operate All of these factors make magnetic bearings highly reliable, which drastically reduces maintenance requirements. Magnetic bearing systems
also have low vibration levels even during high-speed operation, and low audible noise levels.

typical-magnetic-bearing-system
A cross-sectional view shows a typical magnetic bearing system with both axial and radial bearings together with the position sensors.




For these reasons, magnetic bearings can help you achieve performance levels that were not attainable before. If you have reached the performance limits in any one of these areas with traditional solutions, then you should consider magnetic bearing technology.




How they work




Magnetic bearings are basically a system of bearings which provide non-contact operation, virtually eliminating friction from rotating mechanical systems. Magnetic bearing systems have several components. The mechanical components consist of the electromagnets, position sensors and the rotor. The electronics consist of a set of power amplifiers that supply current to electromagnets. A controller works with the position sensors which provide feedback to control the position of the rotor within the gap. The position sensor registers a change in position of the shaft (rotor). This change in position is communicated back to the processor where the signal is processed and the controller decides what the necessary response should be, then initiates a response to the
amplifier. This response should then increase the magnetic force in the corresponding electromagnet in order to bring the shaft back to center. In a typical system, the radial clearance can range from 0.5 to 1 mm. This process repeats itself over and over again. For most applications, the sample rate is 10,000 times per second, or 10 kHz. The sample rate is high because the loop is inherently unstable. As the rotor gets closer to the magnet, the force increases. The system needs to continuously adjust the magnetic strength coming from the electromagnets
in order to hold the rotor in the desired position.




Monitoring





Magnetic bearing systems can also be actively monitored and therefore dramatically reduce maintenance costs.


The general magnetic principle is illustrated here. A change in shaft position is registered by the position sensor which is sent to the processor.
The controller then sends the necessary response to the amplifier, which increases the magnetic force in the corresponding electromagnet to bring
the shaft back to center.




A monitoring system can offer real-time snapshots of positions, currents, and forces in both time and frequency domains in addition to real-time representations of position, current or force orbits. Alarm logs can also capture all system variables on either side of an unusual event while trending tools can record variables for short or long-term trending.




Such active monitoring systems take information that is automatically available in the magnetic bearings and present it in a useful interface. This helps you not only improve machine reliability but ultimately get
the most out of your systems. You can make better decisions based on what you know and document about your process. What you are able to measure, you are able to improve. And here, you can capture measurements
on your process to help trouble shoot and improve your setup.




Magnetic bearings are an especially good fit in the oil and gas industry primarily because of their high reliability. In fact, one of the earliest applications of magnetic bearing technology was in the natural gas industry, where there are still machines operating in the field for decades without any reliability issues. The high-speed capability of magnetic bearings also helps to improve the efficiency of the machines in the field as more of the energy in the pipeline can be delivered to the end-use site.

turbo-compressor
In an application involving a turbocompressor, instead of independent radial and axial bearings,
this design combines the axial and radial bearings into one cartridge unit. The symmetrical bearings are located on each end of the PM motor.




More recently, an application involving cooling turbocompressors posed the challenge of providing quiet and efficient compression of refrigerants for industrial chillers. A traditional solution involved using rolling element bearings and a single speed induction motor.





However, the magnetic bearing design offered the advantage of an oil-free semi-hermetic unit that accommodated the large operating range, with speeds ranging from 12,000 to 40,000 rpm, including surge
conditions. The oil-free centrifugal compressor with variable speed drive increased the part-load and the full-load energy efficiency by at least 10% over geared/hydrodynamic designs. The magnetic bearing design also lowered noise levels and provided vibration-free operation, in addition to reducing maintenance by providing built-in monitoring.

Facts Only
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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One of the hardest parts of packaging the turbo's was to do it without putting any magnetic materials in there as they affect the MGU-H so I suspect its a non-starter.
None of the turbo's I worked on used magnetic bearings it was never even considered, it was a battle between Roller Bearings and Journal bearings. Both have there advantages but ultra-high quality roller bearings always ended up being used.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Affect the MGUH? That maybe so but the elephant in the room is heat and reliability.
Can the magnets work efficiently at elevated temperatures?
When you electric power goes what happens? Do your bearings crash land and blow the turbo to smithereens? Or is there a battery that keeps it powered long enough to slow down to a gentle landing. This has to be thought out first.
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giantfan10
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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mrluke wrote:
MesteΓ±o wrote:Doesn't the Ferrari sound at 0:50 like engine was blowing in the curve?
They sounded like that last year too which is a shame as it probably means they still aren't making the most of their PU.
just wow is all i have to say about that statement....notice the mercedes made the same sound off throttle along with the renault?

Facts Only
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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PlatinumZealot wrote:Affect the MGUH? That maybe so but the elephant in the room is heat and reliability.
Can the magnets work efficiently at elevated temperatures?
When you electric power goes what happens? Do your bearings crash land and blow the turbo to smithereens? Or is there a battery that keeps it powered long enough to slow down to a gentle landing. This has to be thought out first.
This is also the problem with journal bearings (lack of oil not electricity), especially when part of the rules stated that the cars had to run on electrical power only in the pitlane. Either the turbo would have had to stop dead or oil pressure would have had to be maintained. That rule was quietly dropped though.

Anything magnetic in the MGUH's vicinity is a no-no, its not too difficult to do except when it come to getting decent fasteners.
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mrluke
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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giantfan10 wrote:
mrluke wrote:
MesteΓ±o wrote:Doesn't the Ferrari sound at 0:50 like engine was blowing in the curve?
They sounded like that last year too which is a shame as it probably means they still aren't making the most of their PU.
just wow is all i have to say about that statement....notice the mercedes made the same sound off throttle along with the renault?
From watching the race at Spa last year the Ferrari was very easy to hear as it was much louder than the other cars on decel / partial throttle. The Torro Rosso was also noticeable whereas on the Mercedes cars you couldnt hear it at all, they were a constant volume.

Pretty sure it is down to wastegate usage, i.e. when the wastegate is open the cars are much louder as the exhaust gas bypasses the turbo (just look at the size of the wastegate pipework on the Ferrari!).

This would mean that the Ferraris are generating more boost than can be bled off by the MGU-H whereas Mercedes have an MGUh capable of managing more boost and hence generating/recovering more power.

But please feel free to post evidence to the contrary. Please dont include anything that has gone through the FOM tuning process as it makes the cars sound completely different.

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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Depends on how much boost you want at the compressor and how much energy you want to harvest.

Exhaust power = MGUH power + Compressor power + wasted power by waste gate + wasted power through turbine wheels

The limiting factors on the MGUH power is the ampacity of the hardware (how much current you can draw without overheating) and the charging rate of the battery. If Ferrari has an inefficient MGUH it would not affect how much power it can draw at a time, it only means that their MGUH cannot convert as much shaft energy into exhaust energy. This is unlikely as they use the same Magnetti Marrelli MGUH as Renault. Another weak link could be their turbine being too small. A small turbine spins up faster and consequently boost builds faster in the compressor. In other words, in braking or traction limited zones, the power going to the compressor is too much too fast and so they have to send the excess through the waste gate.
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mrluke
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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The ideal solution (as originally attempted by renault/redbull) would be not to have a wastegate and be able to convert all of the excess boost into ERS / mguk power.

I think you have taken my use of the phrase inefficient too literally. I simply meant that the Ferrari pu has to resort to opening the wastegate more frequently than the Renault or especially the Mercedes.

Boost may build faster in a smaller compressor but it would likewise fall quicker as well once the mguh acts as a generator, think of it as having more intertia (I expect an engineer will kill me for that reference!).

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Careful there. Smaller turbine has different effects than a small compressor. Cannot really swap them around .

When the compressor is loaded A smaller turbine wont slow down faster than the big one if exhaust gasses are still trying to turn it. That is because the flow area is smaller and hence gas velocity is higher. The smaller turbine is more efficient at lower gas flows. So it will turn the coMpressor faster and. React faster to increasing flows as well. This also has to do with the rotational inertia of the whole rotating assembly of the turbine.

This is just one aspect though.

For the compressor. Generally a larger diameter compressor is more efficient. You want the compressor diameter as big as you can get it. In a large radius compressor the diffusers are longer so the gas has a more gentle ramp up in pressure as it migrates radially outwards and hence less energy losses. There are other geomtrical tricks one can use to make the radial compressor perform better but that is another topic.
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mrluke
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Re: Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

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Agree that you want as a big a compressor as you can get away with because really boost is just a convenient way of measuring mass flow to the engine.

Really you want the turbine to have enough energy to provide far more boost than you can use in the compressor due to fuel limitations. In a traditional installation you would bleed this excess energy through a wastegate to prevent overboosting at the compressor. In the F1 PU they instead use the MGUh as a brake(generator) on the shaft to prevent overboosting at the compressor.

If you are applying the mguh at its full generation / brake mode to the turbine and the compressor boost is exceeding your target then you would open the wastegate to bleed the excess pressure.

Crap video but you can hear the same noise from both Ferraris.