Formula E

[Andres125sx]

Currently it seems that FE lack the energy required to overcome gross cornering assistance aids such as wide super-sticky tyres

Sorry but this is BS

super sticky tires will provide some added drag, but the difference is so small you can´t seriously say they don´t have enough energy to use them

They don´t use them because they want FE to be road relevant, as simple as this, they explained this point more than once. And this Michelin tires are light years ahead of F1 tires when talking about road relevance

And I´m really glad they took this aproach, because super sticky tires mean super dirty tracks out of the line due to the marbles, what makes overtaking a lot more difficult and the category a lot more boring

& massively draggy aero-downforce devices,

Same as F3, wich is the category they were trying to compare.

F3


FE

( & perhaps, the power to run active aero?)..

Sorry but more BS

Active aero would be just the opposite, they could use flat wings at the straights to avoid the act as airbrakes, and use high downforce (and drag) configs at the corners to improve cornering speed... and braking too.

So they could be faster both at the straights and at the corners no matter how much power the motor provide

Although, evidently, the speed they do make - does not warrant too much - in the way of this stuff, anyhow..

How much downforce do the monkey seat provide on a F1? Not much really. But they use it anyway.... Weird people this F1 engineers...

[mzso]

@mzso: Only with ground effect you get the downforce you get in the part of the car where you get it, and that's it. If it doesn't suit the circuit, tough luck. Plus underfloor downforce can suddenly disappear, say going over one of those monster kerbs.
Downforce from wings, while being less efficient, is more constant, and it is tunable. You can transfer downforce to the front or the back of the car, or increase it or reduce it overall, just by changing the angles of attack. This way you can suit the car to the different layouts, ambient conditions, etc. It it rains, you crank both wings up. That's what I meant with balance.

If you take a closer look, you'll see that I wasn't promoting actual ground effect, in which case the issues you mentioned would be present. But if you don't have the sideskirt/sideplates, etc you won't get these issues.
The Byren/Head proposal provided an incredibly simple and fool proof solution: making the sides of the car further from the ground than the middle. Thais way they can't cheat with the suspension.
I'm not sure about tunability without wings, but I think it should be possible if you let the end/"tail" of the car to be adjusted, maybe you could do it to the leading edge. Or maybe even allow an opening somewhere half way.
Anyway, in my opinion an EV racer should be primarily efficient, even if it's at the cost tunability.

Even F1 vent into a more efficient direction, though it's mostly just PR. The aero is still a giant wind catcher, which eats up most of the energy.

[wesley123]

@mzso: Only with ground effect you get the downforce you get in the part of the car where you get it, and that's it. If it doesn't suit the circuit, tough luck. Plus underfloor downforce can suddenly disappear, say going over one of those monster kerbs.
Downforce from wings, while being less efficient, is more constant, and it is tunable. You can transfer downforce to the front or the back of the car, or increase it or reduce it overall, just by changing the angles of attack. This way you can suit the car to the different layouts, ambient conditions, etc. It it rains, you crank both wings up. That's what I meant with balance.

If you take a closer look, you'll see that I wasn't promoting actual ground effect, in which case the issues you mentioned would be present. But if you don't have the sideskirt/sideplates, etc you won't get these issues..

Underbodies are sensitive to changes in pressure with or without skirts. The gdownforce from the floor changes when ride height/rake/whatever position changes.

(sudden) loss of downforce is an issue with aero devices close to the ground, with or without skirts.

[wesley123]

If FE lack the energy to provide full power for a race, how will it accommodate the power draw
to enable a modern powered active aero downforce system?

I don't think a simple electrical switch will consume much power. Plus, the power saved by drag reduction will almost certainly outweigh power consumed by active aero.

[J.A.W.]

W-123 - to what "simple electrical switch" do you refer?

By "active aero" I mean a properly integrated ECU/servo-operated system of variable planes/flaps/slats & etc..

Thinking say.. A2A guided missile..

[henry]

W-123 - to what "simple electrical switch" do you refer?

By "active aero" I mean a properly integrated ECU/servo-operated system of variable planes/flaps/slats & etc..

Thinking say.. A2A guided missile..

Try thinking DRS.

[mzso]

Underbodies are sensitive to changes in pressure with or without skirts. The gdownforce from the floor changes when ride height/rake/whatever position changes.

(sudden) loss of downforce is an issue with aero devices close to the ground, with or without skirts.

You're still thinking of ground effect, which only happens if you have sideskirts or if you have a lot of flat surface very-close the ground which was the case in the early nineties.
That's why I said wing-car because you can take measures against actual ground effect and just have the shape of the body provide downforce.

[Andres125sx]

What´s the problem with the skirts?

We´re on 2015, not 90´s. Active suspensions would solve that problem, plus some sort of active skirts could be implemented to accomodate when the car run over a kerb. Even pasive could solve the problem.

But even if that´s not possible, maybe it could be the solution to stop climbing over the kerbs more and more each season.... If you go too far up the kerb you loose ground effect so it´s up to you to decide the risk you assume, same as going close to a wall at the exit of a corner.

Ground effect could be perfectly safe today

[mzso]

What´s the problem with the skirts?

We´re on 2015, not 90´s. Active suspensions would solve that problem, plus some sort of active skirts could be implemented to accomodate when the car run over a kerb. Even pasive could solve the problem.

But even if that´s not possible, maybe it could be the solution to stop climbing over the kerbs more and more each season.... If you go too far up the kerb you loose ground effect so it´s up to you to decide the risk you assume, same as going close to a wall at the exit of a corner.

Skirts are unreliable, there's no way to fix that.

Ground effect could be perfectly safe today

Nope. How do you imagine?
Any sort of unevenness or disruption could cause most of the downforce to go disappear. So it's inherently more dangerous.
On the other hand without skirts you dont have the sort of low pressure that can suddenly disappear.

[wesley123]

W-123 - to what "simple electrical switch" do you refer?

By "active aero" I mean a properly integrated ECU/servo-operated system of variable planes/flaps/slats & etc..

Thinking say.. A2A guided missile..

To simply operate such things doesn't require much power, certainly not the amount gained. Of course, you could over-complicate it, but is that really necessary? In the end it comes to a simple thing; less drag on the straights, more downforce in the corners.

You're still thinking of ground effect, which only happens if you have sideskirts or if you have a lot of flat surface very-close the ground which was the case in the early nineties.

Current cars with the step in their floors still suffer the same problem, just to a lesser extent because the gap is larger.

We´re on 2015, not 90´s. Active suspensions would solve that problem,

To a certain extent, yes.

plus some sort of active skirts could be implemented to accomodate when the car run over a kerb. Even pasive could solve the problem.

Except the gap between the ground changes and you won't be able to maintain the perfect seal necessary to maintain the necessary downforce.

But even if that´s not possible, maybe it could be the solution to stop climbing over the kerbs more and more each season.... If you go too far up the kerb you loose ground effect so it´s up to you to decide the risk you assume, same as going close to a wall at the exit of a corner.

Except suddenly losing large amounts of downforce is quite dangerous.

Ground effect could be perfectly safe today

No. It's still as dangerous as it was when people first found out about it. The laws of physics don't change.

[Andres125sx]

Law of physics don´t change, but technology evolve, and active skirts are plausible today. I´m thinking about a sensor taking distance and adjusting skirts height to match it, or even a simple spring moving down the skirt until it seals the gap...


But I´ll repeat, even if they´re not possible, just with active suspensions ground effect could be used. If they go over a kerb it will dissapear.... and the car will slide... What´s the problem?

Same as if they go over grass, they will loose most of the grip and will slide...


And there´s even more extreme examples..... what if they go too wide here?


What I mean is even if active skirts are not used, they could cope with a car they know can´t go over kerbs. If they can get close to a wall with milimeters margin, they could avoid going over kerbs with a ground effect car.

Afte all if they fail and go over the kerb it still will be less dangerous than if they fail and hit a wall as they´re doing constantly on Monaco, Montreal, Singapour, Abu Dhabi....

[wesley123]

Law of physics don´t change, but technology evolve, and active skirts are plausible today. I´m thinking about a sensor taking distance and adjusting skirts height to match it, or even a simple spring moving down the skirt until it seals the gap...

Still changes the height between the body and the ground, and thus, downforce.

But I´ll repeat, even if they´re not possible, just with active suspensions ground effect could be used. If they go over a kerb it will dissapear.... and the car will slide... What´s the problem?

The problem is that their grip is suddenly gone. These cars require downforce to maintain their cornering speeds. Take that away and their grip is gone. Losing that grip when going through a corner at a solid pace doesn't sound very safe to me.

What I mean is even if active skirts are not used, they could cope with a car they know can´t go over kerbs. If they can get close to a wall with milimeters margin, they could avoid going over kerbs with a ground effect car.

What about a sudden increase in yaw, or other incidents?

Afte all if they fail and go over the kerb it still will be less dangerous than if they fail and hit a wall as they´re doing constantly on Monaco, Montreal, Singapour, Abu Dhabi....

Except they can correct, compensate and expect. not so much when downforce is suddenly gone in a unpredictable fashion.

[flynfrog]

Id be willing to bet there would be more to be gained by taking the wings off the formula E car and putting real slicks on them. Road relevance is crap tires and single seat open wheel cars with wings i guess. They would probably use less energy in this configuration less drag more momentum carried through the corner.

[mrluke]

You could use a fan to have consistent down force..

[wesley123]

You could use a fan to have consistent down force..

Which brings the issue of debris being thrown up, plus packaging the whole thing.