F1 safety after Alonso's accident

[Manoah2u]

This is the picture from the crash and the light on top of the rool hoop would indicate that the car was electrically "safe".

http://www.blogf1.it/wp-content/uploads ... idente.jpg

yes but that doesn't neccesarily count because it only shows the car was safe at that precise moment, whilst it MIGHT have been unsafe just moments before.

still, there is no way electrocution could have happened either way

[Tim.Wright]

still, there is no way electrocution could have happened either way

If a battery can deliver 100kW to an electric motor it can deliver it to a driver if something goes wrong...

[Richard]

We do have to be careful about assuming heresay are facts. The previous comments about 150 kph were from Vettel in the following car. The BBC have seen GPS traces that the teams get showing Alonso was doing 215kph (it was also his fastest lap). So its no surprise that the impact hit 30g

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/31661625

As for broader lessons, there does seem to have been a sea change in how concussion is handled in sport. It's for the better but does mean someone passed as fit might to be allowed to play due to the time needed for the brain tissue to be strong enough for another impact. Just like we can have muscle injuries are fine to walk but feel the pain if we push ourselves.

Sometimes people who have been thought to have made a full recovery then have a reoccurrence of the concussion symptoms, this happened to an England rugby player last week. Again we've all experienced that with muscle injuries, you think your fit then feel that twinge again.

As for cameras, high speed cockpit cams would enable us to see what was going on, like an audio black box on a plane. For instance we'd know if Alonso steering right in the still frame was simply the driver see-sawing the wheel as he tried to recover the car. Yes the team have that telemetry, but the camera would give a richer picture (forgive the pun!). Oh, and we'd get better TV feed in proper HD.

[☠ Purple Possum ☠]

"Electric Shock" seems to be a buzz word in every current thread but nobody ever explained how a charge could knock out a driver. Would someone be so kind to elaborate on the matter?

Required is a potential between two contacts. If the alternator or battery stack would suffer a catastrophic failure then there could be a discharge or a spark gap along the shortest path.

The driver sits in a fiber-reinforced plastic tub and his controls are galvanically isolated by a number of AD and DC/DC converters which makes this theory far to complicated.

[Manoah2u]

"Electric Shock" seems to be a buzz word in every current thread but nobody ever explained how a charge could knock out a driver. Would someone be so kind to elaborate on the matter?

Required is a potential between two contacts. If the alternator or battery stack would suffer a catastrophic failure then there could be a discharge or a spark gap along the shortest path.

The driver sits in a fiber-reinforced plastic tub and his controls are galvanically isolated by a number of AD and DC/DC converters which makes this theory far to complicated.

exactly.

[langwadt]

snip
Alonso is not an exit so he's not the conductor - the 4 tires of the car are made of a compound that doesn't conduct electricity either - there is no ground.

Marshalls are only a danger because they are the ' ground ' in case of an electrical unsafe situation; they are the missing contact link between the car and the earth. That's why there are warning lights and that's why the marshalls wear gloves.
In case of an unsafe electrical issue with the car; there is a red light instead of a green one, and marshalls will not touch the car so they will not conduct any energy.

The driver, in such occasion, would jump from the car so he does not make a bridge between the car and the earth/ground.

snip

ground/earth is not magic, if the ES is not connected to ground somehow, touching the car and ground will not give you a shock

[Manoah2u]

still, there is no way electrocution could have happened either way

If a battery can deliver 100kW to an electric motor it can deliver it to a driver if something goes wrong...

no, it doesn't work that way, at all.

first: read.
http://www.dansdata.com/gz013.htm

second; is the driver a conductor? no, he isn't.

the driver is wearing protective clothing, loads of isolation, wearing gloves, a helmet, and all sorts of stuff. there is zero electricity conducted through the driver.

ground/earth is not magic, if the ES is not connected to ground somehow, touching the car and ground will not give you a shock

obviously it isn't. the warning light however is still present to show it's not safe to touch the car. that means there COULD be a potential danger from current passing through the vehicle to the ground. that's why they then will not touch it.
it's actually in the quote you snipped out. offcourse it's not magic; but one can assume the light being on when it's unsafe is because there actually indeed is a ground from the electrical system that could be transferred through the touch of 'something', like a marshall f.e.

it's because of this there are no 'wires' or 'connectors' from the car to the ground/track to conduct energy. to prevent the risk of electrocution.

meanwhile, i'm not sure but i could imagine there's a 'panic' button in the car that the driver could press in a potential electric hazard situation to shut off any form of electricity; like a main switch in a racecar to the battery to preven f.e. the fuel pump to continue working in case of a rupture. it would be highly unlikely this switch would not be 'switched' by the driver if such a thing happens.

in any case; the entire electrocution story is bogus.

[Tim.Wright]

People make great conductors if the voltage is high enough and the little racesuits won't do anything to stop it because they aren't designed to be electrically insulating.

Just to clarify, I think the shock theory is unlikely I'm just taking exception to your statement that "there is no way electrocution could have happened either way" which isn't true.

[Manoah2u]

People make great conductors if the voltage is high enough and the little racesuits won't do anything to stop it because they aren't designed to be electrically insulating.

Just to clarify, I think the shock theory is unlikely I'm just taking exception to your statement that "there is no way electrocution could have happened either way" which isn't true.

people make great conductors if they are able to conduct. First of all human's are really not that able to conduct well. again, read the links. The voltage must be incredibly high AND the current aswell - like a lightning strike - or grabbing a powerline and making contact with the ground [that's why birds don't get fried whilst sitting on a powerline that actually houses thousands of volts and amps. they are not conducting, because they aren't touching the ground/making ground or creating a circuit, so they're totally fine].

They must touch the ground or become part of an electrical circuit to become a conductor. there is no way the driver can become part of an internal electrical circuit, simply because of the way electricity conducts and the amount of 'power' needed to engage current through protective clothing. racesuits are actually a dead stop for current; they are of nature not-conducting. that's why you wear gloves when working with electricity and a screwdriver that is intended to 'read' electricity [the light will come on inside] has a plastic housing. to prevent current coming through.

[Tim.Wright]

Everything is a conductor to some degree, even the human body;



All you need is a wiring malfunction to include the driver in a circuit.

[George-Jung]

Offtopic, why do people say that if lightning strikes a car.. the passanger shouldn't touch any metal parts of the car?
Is that something completely different.. or is it just plain B.S.

[Manoah2u]

Everything is a conductor to some degree, even the human body;

http://content.myodesie.com/images/tech ... t_edit.PNG

All you need is a wiring malfunction to include the driver in a circuit.

no, that's not 'all' you need. you still need to BECOME part of a [closed] electrical circuit. which is simply not possible whilst sitting in a F1 car that doesn't make contact.

again, the birds on the power lines. offcourse if you put the nose of a bird in one power supply socket and his bum in the other, he'll be fried. however, if you put his nose in the socket and the rest is hovering, nothing happens. thus, though it can conduct, there still needs to be a electrical circuit to conduct.

so you can show infinite pages on how the human body in intself conducts energy, it is of no use. there still needs to be a closed circuit. AND, gloves and rubber boots will be a blocker for conducting electricity. so even if a human body had a powerline from it's fingers to it's toes paired with sockets [which it really doesnt, again, read all about the resistance of human skin against electricity in the links provided], if one wears a glove and boots/shoes with rubber soles, there is no longer any possibility of conduct [as long as the shoes and gloves aren't wet]. offcourse, we're not talking about lightning strike power here, but Alonso has not been hit by lightning, now has he?

even if there is a freak electrical issue, it still would NEED to somehow find it's way through the driver. not touch the driver, it needs to go through him. which is, simply, impossible, because he's wearing an overall. his seat MIGHT conduct energy. still, nothing happens.

[Manoah2u]

Offtopic, why do people say that if lightning strikes a car.. the passanger shouldn't touch any metal parts of the car?
Is that something completely different.. or is it just plain B.S.

it's because of possible heat.

http://www.ask.com/science/can-electroc ... 1bc50e4a50

and

http://www.weather.com/storms/tornado/n ... r-20140625

[George-Jung]

Offtopic, why do people say that if lightning strikes a car.. the passanger shouldn't touch any metal parts of the car?
Is that something completely different.. or is it just plain B.S.

it's because of possible heat.

http://www.ask.com/science/can-electroc ... 1bc50e4a50

Ok thansk!

[George-Jung]

... if you put his nose in the socket and the rest is hovering, nothing happens. thus, though it can conduct, there still needs to be a electrical circuit to conduct....

Isn't it also important how high you are hovering.. because a spark could also create an electrical circuit?