Sauber F1 Team 2015

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turbof1
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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I still don't get why there has not been a verdict yet to simply pay vd Garde for his damages and be done with it. Truly the damage in the relationship between vd Garde and Sauber is this deep now that the contract can impossibly be forfilled. It'll simply result in Sauber not racing.

Then again, Sauber's utterly embarassing defense earlier did not help them in that regard. Just ranting about safety and lying about procedures will not have fallen in good earth with the judges, who were very prepared for the case I must say.
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Jonnycraig
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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turbof1 wrote:I still don't get why there has not been a verdict yet to simply pay vd Garde for his damages and be done with it. Truly the damage in the relationship between vd Garde and Sauber is this deep now that the contract can impossibly be forfilled. It'll simply result in Sauber not racing.

Then again, Sauber's utterly embarassing defense earlier did not help them in that regard. Just ranting about safety and lying about procedures will not have fallen in good earth with the judges, who were very prepared for the case I must say.
There's hasn't been a compensation amount decided because neither party has requested it.

Van Der Garde wants to drive, not receive money. Sauber want him to not drive and can't afford to pay him any compensation.

Sauber have dug themselves a hole so deep that they can hide all their assets in it to stop them being seized.

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turbof1
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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It'll cost Sauber now much more if they stay within that situation. I fear if this line continues the team is done.
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Jonnycraig
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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turbof1 wrote:It'll cost Sauber now much more if they stay within that situation. I fear if this line continues the team is done.
If they have to refund Ericsson, they're finished. If they have to refund Nasr, they're finished. If they ignore the court orders, they're finished.

No matter what they do from here, an administration looks nailed on to me, and it's all Saubers own fault.

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Phil
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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I would think for two reasons:

If they had come out and said the truth probably wouldn't have swayed a judge one way or another, since he is there to rule on the matter and not on possible consequences that may result from that verdict. In other words, their unfortunate (financial) situation isn't of any relevance. The second reason is probably of embarassing nature, of not wanting to admit to the "mess" they created with the contracts, so they were effectively trying to get out with all the other arguments on the basis of safety etc.

I would have thought that to some degree, Sauber could argue that "events" and "circumstance" of higher power forced them to breach the contract with VdG (it did, because the original plan was to race VdG alongside Bianchi which would have given them money + an engine deal with Ferrari - then Bianchi crashes and the engine deal evaporates and Nasr and Ericsson become available). The problem is - that is probably what they should have argued (maybe they did?) in Geneva in front of the Swiss arbitration court. As far as I understand, all what the Australian Court is doing is determing that the verdict in Switzerland is valid and can and should be enforced in Australia and its Grand Prix. That the Swiss arbitration ruling isn't 'final' or legally binding yet is probably irrelevant (Sauber, AFAIK, has appealed that verdict, but no idea when that will proceed?).

Anyway, I'm utterly stunned that a court can force the team to run a particular driver. While a pay-driver contract is probably a lot more complex than simply a contract between an employer and an employee, the matter of the fact still remains that no driver can ever be bigger than the team. And if the team in question (Sauber in this case) despite all financial payments by their pay-driver wish to terminate that contract, the only thing a court could force them is to pay out compensation and damages in a determined fashion. If the team then goes into administration as a result of them not being able to meet those (and other) payments, so be it. But to force them to run that driver? That IMO is dangerous territory, not only for Sauber, but technically for any team that employes a pay-driver (or any driver who I guess has some entitlement to the seat he signed) and is for one or another reason suspended.

There is the argument of course that a F1 seat is something special, an event and that there is a higher meaning to being able to race or participate vs. something a simple compensation could manage, but in terms of F1, it is not only a drivers sport - it's a team sport too. The driver are but two individuals inside an organisation with hundreds of employees (in the case of Sauber ~300)...

At this point, I'm actually seeing Monisha praying that that superlicence doesn't arrive in time... :(

(I'm not against VdG per say, but as a Swiss, I am very concerned about Saubers situation as a race team looking forward...)
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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ChrisM40
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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We can only assume that Sauber havent made any offer of financial compensation, and have clearly stated they wont. If thats the case then enforcing the contract is what the court must do.

VDG is an investor and critically, a customer of Sauber, he is demanding what he paid for, it not unheard of for a customer to demand the material goods in lieu of compensation once a transaction has completed.

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knabbel
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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I still don't understand how Sauber could end up in this total mess. The only thing I can think of, is that the team was and probably is in total panic.

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Phil
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Probably because they cant make any realistic offer that wouldnt be laughed at, so it would be better for a court to deduct what kind of compensation must be payed (unless a settlement is reached). From what it seems though, VdG does not want financial compensation, but the seat to race. Either for the personal benefit or because his backers are speculating on Sauber going bust because of this. If this is the case, it would be logical and strategic to refuse any financial compensation / damages talk and proceed as far as you can with the media and the courts. And from what it seems, this is exactly what he is doing.

As for the confusion how Sauber could get this far... I think that is sadly well documented. Key word being financial struggles and circumstances (see my last post or read up on the good summary on Joe Sawards blog).
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Jonnycraig
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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knabbel wrote:I still don't understand how Sauber could end up in this total mess. The only thing I can think of, is that the team was and probably is in total panic.
They were planning on running Bianchi (with $10m engine discount) and VDG with $10m budget.

Bianchi had his accident, and Marussia & Caterham going into administration meant that suppliers suddenly wanted cash upfront, leaving Sauber in a very tricky financial spot, needing liquid cash urgently and taking it from Ericsson & Nasr to the detriment of the pre-signed contracts with VDG.

From there it has been 4 months of desperately hoping that VDG would just go away with his tail between his legs, he hasnt and they are now going to pay the price

lotus7
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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I still can't understand why he would want (or insist) to drive for a team that is obviously in dire straights and would be even more so if they have to pay off one of the other drivers .
Except for "ulterior" motives , which I can speculate on .

Jonnycraig
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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lotus7 wrote:I still can't understand why he would want (or insist) to drive for a team that is obviously in dire straights and would be even more so if they have to pay off one of the other drivers .
Except for "ulterior" motives , which I can speculate on .
What else is he going to do this season?

He gave up his 2014 season to take on a testing role with the promise of a 2015 seat. If he walks away, he's lost 2 seasons of racing for nothing, despite being in the right.

If the team goes under, it's on Monisha's head, which lets be honest, may be an added personal bonus for VDG.

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turbof1
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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We can't blame vd Garde for doing this. After all it was Sauber that signed then dropped him and did not pay him compensation.

If vd Garde gets anything meaningful out of this, is of course an entirely different matter. Maybe a few races at most before Sauber goes into administration.

I feel bad for Ericsonn and Nasr. They did not wished for this at all. All collateral damage in the graveyard Sauber created.
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Phil
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Jonnycraig wrote:He gave up his 2014 season to take on a testing role with the promise of a 2015 seat. If he walks away, he's lost 2 seasons of racing for nothing, despite being in the right.
Yes. But I'm doubtful he would have found a different seat, much less an actual guaranteed race seat, if it weren't for Sauber who signed him because of the financial backing. Who is left? Perhaps Marussia who made it to the grid against all odds... But apart from that, I don't see where he would have raced if he hadn't lost those two years.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Richard
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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Hulkenberg's comments to the BBC are telling, he focusses on how the team handle their drivers. It infers he had similar problems. The quote below is from the video starting at 1:11
Hulkenberg wrote:I'm not surprised, I know the people, I know how it has been there in the past. They were obviously desperate for money to survive which is maybe a general problem of F1, but still that's not the way to do business and screw people like this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/31849139

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Phil
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Re: Sauber F1 Team 2015

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I think you linked the wrong URL Richard (no quotes by Hulkenberg there), but I think I read the interview before. The sad thing is; yes, certain drivers have been "handled" wrongly by teams in the past - and if I recall correctly, Hulkenberg has been one of them who supposedly didn't receive his salary in a timely fashion. That isn't necessarely down to the team not wanting to pay, but them being in a bad position of having to pay for lots of expenses to make it to the grid, week by week, event by event. I think a driver should in that case be willing to accept that sometimes, the choice is either to receive his "salary" on time, but risk not being able to race because the team can't meet other expenses, or to accept delays in payment for "the greater benefit". It doesn't make it right, but that many teams - not only Sauber - are in deep financial problems is unfortunately a reality. Which is why year by year, we are having talks and discussions on the topic of a cost-cap or fairer tv money distributions...
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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