Toro Rosso STR10 Renault

[matt21]

Done a little CAD work.
So, according to scarbs it should look like this:

[ringo]

It must be before the last 150mm then, which is around 6 inches. It looks like it.

[r101]

Hello guys, first post here!

I was wondering if the pressure from rear wing somehow affects the exhaust characteristics (for example - giving it lower diameter/better turbo spool on low speed and higher diameter/better engine top end when the pressure is on)

[SectorOne]

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/582912712977580032

[Alexgtt]

The benefit is almost certainly aero. As article has said, less components in the air stream. This means less drag, cleaner air to work the wing/diffuser and monkey seat. Add to that (speculative as I don't know enough) possible cleaning up of exhaust gas stream by the internal vane making the monkey seat more effective. I think it adds up to some significant gains.

Also, consider this - impact on exhaust flow/back pressure could be very minimal considering aggressive use of exhaust energy for MGU-H. They're trying to extract all they can in this area so I'm sure impact on ultimate power is far less than any conventional PU that relies on ICE alone.

Not at all surprised if this is copied widely very soon.

[aleks_ader]

Scarbs i hope you know what type of picture you will take next?

[Thunder]

That's quite a clever solution. Toro Rosso really impresses me this Year.
And thanks @matt21 for the CAD Model, great Work there.

[aleks_ader]

(I don't think it's the case but) Let's assume the pylon goes through the exhaust: it occupy space inside the tube so less hot exhaust gases pass through it.
Does it help/affect engine performance?

I wonder, if the center support actually does go through the exhaust pipe, if the heating of the center support by exhaust gasses causes the support to expand causing the center section of the rear wing to move upwards slightly relative to the outer edges, which I believe are fixed in position via attachment of the end plates to the floor?

Possible?

This would very clearly disturb the "spirit of rules" and its attention of "non movable aerodynamics".

As much like last years LMP1 Toyota TS040 rear wing controversy from last year?



1st glimpses http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsjuly14.html
Final verdict: http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsjan15.html

Coincidence? Were TR aero stuff inspired by that? If you could made the rear wing much more predictable in stall conditions, this could be additional "thing" to play with.

Linear expansion of 100mm long piece of 6 grade Titanium by Tdelta 300 is around 0.276mm.

But in any case the figures are probably so small even if we find another type of material. Even if we avoid thermal stress obsticles and choose one of best metals with better thermal expiation ratio the nubers are not convincind. For examle Magnesium alloys will get deltaL just about "0.7"mm.

But the "complex" shape od support could give some bigger angles of "bend" stress and much bigger deltaL per degree of freedom on overall wing support (act as some sort bimetal). This bimetal idea could get some expected 5 mm of movement.


Somebody could even calc of "carbon-metalic-composite bimetal" (i had not enought time right now):


Aero guys could elaborate how pitch sensitive are those multichords RW are to make influence on stall or re-stall (i mean reattact) conditions.

More you think about that more troubles you get. I my opinion is not worth it as pretty it sounds.

Anyway 1st we need the prof of internal wane and its shape and how interacts with gas flow and its "outer ring" (insulation presumably as many mentioned already).

[miguelalvesreis]

(I don't think it's the case but) Let's assume the pylon goes through the exhaust: it occupy space inside the tube so less hot exhaust gases pass through it.
Does it help/affect engine performance?

I wonder, if the center support actually does go through the exhaust pipe, if the heating of the center support by exhaust gasses causes the support to expand causing the center section of the rear wing to move upwards slightly relative to the outer edges, which I believe are fixed in position via attachment of the end plates to the floor?

Possible?

This would very clearly disturb the "spirit of rules" and its attention of "non movable aerodynamics".

As much like last years LMP1 Toyota TS040 rear wing controversy from last year?

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/ToyotaTS ... rsion1.gif

1st glimpses http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsjuly14.html
Final verdict: http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsjan15.html

Coincidence? Were TR aero stuff inspired by that? If you could made the rear wing much more predictable in stall conditions, this could be additional "thing" to play with.

Linear expansion of 100mm long piece of 6 grade Titanium by Tdelta 300 is around 0.276mm.

But in any case the figures are probably so small even if we find another type of material. Even if we avoid thermal stress obsticles and choose one of best metals with better thermal expiation ratio the nubers are not convincind. For examle Magnesium alloys will get deltaL just about "0.7"mm.

But the "complex" shape od support could give some bigger angles of "bend" stress and much bigger deltaL per degree of freedom on overall wing support (act as some sort bimetal). This bimetal idea could get some expected 5 mm of movement.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ApUat5_r_Hs/T ... imetal.gif
Somebody could even calc of "carbon-metalic-composite bimetal" (i had not enought time right now):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/1/e/7/ ... fca356.png

Aero guys could elaborate how pitch sensitive are those multichords RW are to make influence on stall or re-stall (i mean reattact) conditions.

More you think about that more troubles you get. I my opinion is not worth it as pretty it sounds.

Anyway 1st we need the prof of internal wane and its shape and how interacts with gas flow and its "outer ring" (insulation presumably as many mentioned already).

Seems to me that this would be tricky
If we think about the advantages of such effect, that would be, mainly, variation on the aero load. So, what would be the advantage of have that dependent of the temperature of the support?
It will vary in correlation with exhaust temperature, right?
So...
- how much?
- When? In the straights? curving?
- How fast it will change? Can the driver predict it? Will it loose temperature fast enough on the end of a straight in order to help the braking?

Seems to unpredictable to be deployed on a car in such fast manner. Devices with that kind of effect seem to need a bit more testing until they are really functional and, this one was just there from one race to the other.

Seems to me that the main goal was to have a leaner path outside of the exhaust, on the end of the engine cover. Probably increasing the efficiency of the monkey seat.

anyway, just my 2 cents 'bout it

rgrds

[abw]

I haven't logged in at F1T for a long time. Other priorities. But I had a dream last night about this wing support (insanity, I know!) and thought I had to come back to see what you all were saying about it. Very interesting.

In my dream, STR got chewed out by the FIA for a moveable aero device--thermal expansion under flat-out, minimally harvesting throttle somehow magically acting as a bonus DRS. But then in the dream, Toro Rosso presented the counterargument that the intent wasn't to make an illegal moveable aero device, it was to illegally harvest exhaust gases through the pylon and channel them somewhere beneficial.

Dreams are weird. I woke up before my dream stewards passed down a ruling. Oh well.

[frosty125]

I'm not an engineer but is it possible for that center support to get heated it would create a flexibility of the rear wing, altering the angle of attack on the straights.

[PlatinumZealot]

That is an interesting concept. Thermal expansion to make the central pillar extend. Better hope the car cools down before scrutineering though!

[henra]

I'm not an engineer but is it possible for that center support to get heated it would create a flexibility of the rear wing, altering the angle of attack on the straights.

The Problem with this idea is the 'jet-lag'. You will have a reduced angle of attack especially in the breaking zones and subsequent tight Corners on the typical F1 track layouts. on the straights it will quite some time to reduce the angle. And even more so to increase it again since pure spreading of the heat in the pillar will not shorten it. Only cooling down by ambient air will do so. Cooling air in slow chicanes following often after long straights will be quite limited.
In tight sections of the course you will Need high power for acceleration and have limited cooling, so you would run with low angle of attack through Extended Mickey Mouse stuff.
Overall it is an interesting idea but at least in a straight forward fashion I'm not really convinced it would work. Maybe there are more Elaborate ides along those lines though.

[MartijnA3]

I'm not an engineer but is it possible for that center support to get heated it would create a flexibility of the rear wing, altering the angle of attack on the straights.

Hi, first post here.

Wouldn't this mean the monkey seat would move too and become ineffective?

[MartijnA3]

http://www.directupload.net

This looks like a welding seam to me. IMO the load carrying part in this arrangement is the pipe itself.

Isn't that some kind of sealant/heat resistant tape?