Alonso screwing Hamilton in qualifying

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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Are you nuts? Or do you pretend to be nuts? :) (that's a joke. A JOKE).

Was I the only one watching the qualy? Were there too many ads on your cable service?

I have two simple questions:

1. who took the first position on pitlane for Q3?
2. who took the last position to change tyres?

Both positions give you an advantage. Did you see THAT? I did. Apparently, I wasn't alone.

From the "Paddock Talk Website":
Did McLaren screw up?

Or was it an incredibly sophisticated and deliberate attempt by Alonso to block a faster teammate from defending his provisional Pole position ?
...
In Q3 of qualifying, McLaren seemed intent on putting Hamilton on Pole by having Alonso qualify on the ‘prime’ – soft – tire while Hamilton was turning his hot laps on the ‘option’ – super soft – tire with nearly three tenths in hand.

It should have been an easy Pole for Hamilton, but it didn’t happen.

Immediately following the demise of the team’s planned orchestration of the front row, Ron Dennis slammed his headphones down, and stormed off to Parc Ferme to confront his Spanish driver. When challenged, Alonso refused to listen, and walked away from his McLaren Boss who continued to sputter at him.

But Dennis’ scapegoat wasn’t the real problem today. The facts don’t back him up.

Though onlookers were quick to trash Alonso, and ridicule him for deliberately holding up Hamilton…. The facts don’t back them up.

One has to look at the specific timelines to declare guilt.

...

The truth is that Alonso was not going to be given a chance to start the Hungarian Grand Prix from Pole.

It can also be said that McLaren cost Alonso a lap of fuel. Was that intentional ? Was that what the team wanted to insure a Hamilton victory for tomorrow’s race ?

Let’s consider these questions while we look at the facts.

On Alonso’s second to last pitstop in the Q3 qualifying session, McLaren held Alonso for a full 47 seconds (From 7:40 to 6:53). (NOTE by Ciro: I was astounded by THAT) Apparently to allow for traffic to clear, meanwhile Hamilton was allowed to burn fuel during the time that the Spaniard sat idle.

The team then bungled his release when a tire warmer became stuck on the suspension. The mistake cost Alonso another full eight seconds.

Alonso completed his out lap, his hot lap and then returned to the pits. The car was jacked up, and Alonso’s tread was replaced for his final run at Pole. At the 2:08 mark, Alonso was dropped off the jacks and ready to return to the track. But the team held him again…

This time for another 19 critical seconds…

Again apparently for clear track. (NOTE by Ciro: I was amazed by that)

At the 1:51 mark, Hamilton arrived in full view behind Alonso.

At the 1:47 mark, the McLaren mechanic lifts the lolli-pop. Usually a sign that the team wants the driver to leave the pit stall.

What isn’t clear is if Alonso is actually released by the team. Unlike the previous stop, the mechanic in charge of releasing him can’t be seen counting down the release.

During this crucial nine seconds, some speculate that Alonso deliberately held his teammate to cost him Hamilton his run at Pole.

At the 1:38 second mark, Alonso drives away and finds clear track.

At the 1:26 second mark, Hamilton’s service is complete, and he is away for his doomed final lap.

But here is the key point to this presentation of the facts. And Ron Dennis should note this before he scolds his star driver because his favorite son isn’t on Pole.

Alonso began his lap with just three seconds left in the qualifying session. It took him 1:35 to get around the track from the time he left his pit stall.


Even if Alonso had gotten away when the loli-pop went up, Hamilton would have had just 1:35 to get around the track.

While the nine seconds was crucial… It was the McLaren team who kept Alonso for the extra 19 seconds before hand to create the situation. It was the McLaren team who kept Alonso a full 47 seconds the previous pitstop and allowed their drivers to get so close to each other.

The truth is one of the following:

McLaren were too smart by half

Or Alonso is the smartest driver in the world, and had this all calculated out in the cockpit of his car.

Alonso said of the incident, "I leave the pits when I'm told to."

And that makes the most sense.

If Ron Dennis is angry and upset, he only has his own team to whine at for wasting the precious seconds that left Hamilton second. If Ron Dennis is angry and upset, it clearly wasn’t his driver who created the situation.

If Ron Dennis is angry and upset that McLaren’s intended orchestration of the front row didn’t happen as planned, he only has one place to point the finger…

At his team. Not his driver.

Even so, the one who ought to be furious is Fernando Alonso.

While Alonso will start from Pole on a track where it is extremely difficult to make a pass, the team cost him a full lap of fuel by forcing him to sit idle in his pit stall. (NOTE by Ciro: my exact toughts)

They wasted 55 seconds on the second to last stop, plus 19 seconds on his final stop, plus the nine questionable seconds. That works out to 1:23 or one full lap.

Tomorrow, that lost lap could be very costly for Alonso. That is..

If McLaren allows him to win. Because if he does, he’ll overtake the team’s favored one in the Formula one points standings.

Will Ron Dennis allow that to happen ?
I'm starting to find Mr. Dennis a little too fishy for my taste. Perhaps Alonso is a quick thinker. I hope. Anyaway, I'm using my tinfoil hat tomorrow. Just in case.
Ciro

modbaraban
modbaraban
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

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judging by the words used, this article is VERY, VERY biased :P

...in any case this is a eral trouble for McLaren, but very good for even more competative and spectacular season :D

FLC
FLC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 14:01

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Yeah, Ciro, I cant understand this one:
Alonso began his lap with just three seconds left in the qualifying session. It took him 1:35 to get around the track from the time he left his pit stall.
Even if Alonso had gotten away when the loli-pop went up, Hamilton would have had just 1:35 to get around the track.
That's exactly what LH said in the PC.

Anyway, it appears that Dennis has decided to side with Alonso:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61368

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m3_lover
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
Location: St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada

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Well it looks all the forum members to quickly judge Alonso as the culprit are wrong...even by Ron Dennis's own omission. Just remember...when you assume things..you make a Ass of U and Me :)
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.

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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
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I still don't believe Ron. Anyone who says they are telling the truth more than, at most, twice is probably covering things up. And they've messed up races before and Ron was nowhere near that mad, certainly not marching/dragging a drivers trainer down to Parc Ferme. On top of all that, Mclaren aren't the kind of team to NOT tell one of thier drivers what's going on in the pits. I just can't believe they'd do something so blatantly stupid. I smell damage control here.

doorboot
doorboot
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Joined: 17 Feb 2004, 07:54
Location: Durban South Africa

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At first I was pretty mad at Alonso, now I am not so sure I should care. :twisted: As to teamate rivalry... I love it, after years of Schumacher and his sidekick driver show. Bring on some more of this, it make for a hell of a better topic than the rubish about Stephneygate.
"I'm the manager, I make decisions, I'm responsible for the defeat - not for the victories, for the defeats"- Jose Mourinho

manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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Ron says that Hamilton is to blame and that Alonso stayed longer because his engineer told him so while lollipop man *ucked up too for not holding it before engineer gave sign to release Alonso... if I understood correctly what Ron said.

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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Yep. But Gary has a point: Lewis wasn't happy. Doorbot also points out that this incident didn't bring many Commonwealth fans into Alonsos's field... :)

Now, why the engineer wouldn't release the car? Mistakes like those (if it was a mistake, ehem) are the ones that disrupt teams. Anyway, tomorrow's race is going to be entertaining, if only to see who outsmarts who, because tomorrow's race doesn't promise too much track fighting. Only two points to be disputed at the pits... and the pits are "agitated".

BTW, welcome, Gary and doorbot.
Ciro

waynes
waynes
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Joined: 23 Aug 2006, 23:23
Location: Manchester

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hero hamilton at fault :D
McLaren boss Ron Dennis says the controversial pit lane incident involving his two drivers during qualifying for the Hungarian Grand Prix was triggered by Lewis Hamilton failing to heed instructions earlier in the session.

Fernando Alonso beat Hamilton to pole position after the British rookie was forced to queue behind him in the pits and then ran out of time to post his final flying lap.

Alonso held station in the pits for around 10 seconds after his mechanic had removed the ‘lollipop’ – the traditional signal for a driver to leave his stall – leaving Hamilton to sit helplessly while the seconds ticking away.

That prompted widespread suggestions that Alonso had deliberately held up his team-mate in order to deny him pole.

But Dennis insists Alonso was simply following a countdown from his engineer and did nothing wrong.

“Fernando was being counted down by his engineer,” Dennis told reporters at the Hungaroring.

“He’s under the control of his engineer. He determined when he goes. That’s the sequence.

“And if you think that was a deliberate thing, then you can think what you want. I have given you exactly what happened.”

Dennis said it was Hamilton’s failure to stick to the agreed procedure during the fuel-burning phase of Q3 that was the catalyst for the delay.

“We have various procedures within the team and prior to practice we determine how it is going to be run, what our strategy is, and how that’s going to be enacted on the circuit,” he said.

“They were out of sequence because Lewis should have slowed and let Fernando past,” he said.

“And he didn’t. He charged off. That’s how we got out of sequence.”

Dennis explained that the plan was for Alonso to complete an extra fuel-burning lap and that Hamilton had been told to let him past to facilitate this.

“In this instance, it was Fernando’s time to get the advantage of the longer fuel burn,” he said.

“The arrangement was that we reverse positions in the first lap.

“That didn’t occur as arranged. That was somewhat disappointing and caused some tensions on the pit wall.

“We were, from that moment on, out of sequence because the cars were in the wrong place on the circuit and that unfolded into the pit stops.

“It complicated the situation and the end result was Lewis not getting his final timed lap.”

Dennis was at pains to stress that McLaren continues to treat both its drivers equally, and that the tensions that arise on such occasions are inevitable when dealing with such competitive individuals.

“Let me make it a very honest answer: it is extremely difficult to deal with two such competitive drivers,” he said.

“There are definite pressures within the team. We make no secret of it.

“They are both very competitive, and they both want to win, and we are trying our very hardest to balance those pressures.

“Today we were part of a process where it didn’t work, and the end result is more pressure on the team.

“But what you hear is the exact truth of what happened, and we will manage it inside the team through the balance of the season.

“Obviously Lewis feels more uncomfortable with the situation than Fernando.

“That’s life, that’s the way it is, and if he feels too hot to talk about it then that’s the way it is.

“But what I’ve done is give you an exact understanding of what took place today.”
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40282

FLC
FLC
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Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 14:01

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I really don't understand this. Mclaren doesn't have someone in charge? Alonso's engineer will be the soul person to take a call that might effect LH like this?
As Damon Hill said, Alonso could have easily moved on, and wait at the pit exit without disturbing anyone.
I think they have some kind of agreement there, with giving the advantage to one driver at the time, as RD explained, and this was FA's turn and so he's "right".
Mclaren, as prob. most other teams out there, can surely master a situation like this, I don't buy RD's explanation. Someone on the pit wall should have made the call and tell FA to get out of there. Maybe that's why RD threw away the headphones, he fell asleep and missed the action. Damage control someone said?

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
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Of course Ron has been in a similar situation before with his drivers at each others throats.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

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mep
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
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When the lollipop goes up the driver has to drive away and don't has
to aks someone if he really should drive away.

There was noting to discuss about as everytink was clear and no
time left to change anythink.

Alonso is in the same possition as Schumacher last year Monaco and
should get punised in the same way.
I think this punismend would be to hard as it was last year but it's
only fair to give all drivers the same treatment.

I just read the newest info that Hamilton is the one to blame.
This sounds a bit unlogical:
1.)Why doesn't simply Alonso drives first on track instead of changing positions on track?
2.)Alonso made a mistake, Kimi was right behind him so Hamilton wasn't
able to let Alonso pass without also letting Kimi pass.
3.)In the last races it looked more than they have a battle for the leading
positin in Q3 and not a planned routine.
4.)They want Alonso to drive one extra lap, but the let him
stand in pits so he has one lap less --- very well done, and who should belive this?
5.)It's still not explained why Alonso doesn't looks on the lolipop signals.
It's more a explanaition why Alonso let Hamilton wait.
So this means Alonso made it on purpose and we now have the explanation.

6.)Other teams don't seem to have such problems

USAF1FAN
USAF1FAN
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Ray wrote:I still don't believe Ron. Anyone who says they are telling the truth more than, at most, twice is probably covering things up.
I had exactly the same thought, but apparently Alonso will keep his pole position.

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checkered
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Joined: 02 Mar 2007, 14:32

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Well, the

stewards didn't buy whatever it was that McLaren offered as their version of the sequence of events! (Edit: I was still in the process of getting my head around the convoluted explanation Ron gave out for the media ... not to mention the rather lengthy exchanges Alonso and Hamilton had to offer.)

Alonso demoted to sixth in Hungary (link)

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Tom
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I missed the quali so I can't comment much but it seems like a total fiasco.
The problem, I percieve, lies not in the actions of either driver during the session (they have a limited time to make descisions, occasionally they get them wrong) but in the handling of the incident with the press.
Mclaren had a bit of time to sort out a story, instead Lewis f*cked off to watch GP2 so only Ron and Fernando could calibrate stories. They explain their side of the incident to the bloodthirsty press, meanwhile in dithers Lewis and completely contradicts them both.

From the sound of it the actual incident could have been anyones fault except Alonso's physio who had no contact with him during the session, but I pin the blame on Lewis for making a hash of the press conference, he may have been upset but he should still have gone and discussed the situation with Ron rather than wandering off to watch another racing series. Now the British press are going to rip into Mclaren, losing them possible sponsors (rumours about Lewis moving to Ferrari) and the Spanish press will tear Lewis open, losing him respect and Mclaren possible Spanish sponsor oppertunities they could have achieved with Alonso.
At the end of the day someone had to take the fall, accept blame, even if it wasn't entirely their fault, and then everything could be sorted out in private, the team could go back to being a team and we're all relatively happy. Unfortunetly Ron met Fernando and they agreed stories to save the team so Lewis should have folded as soon as he became aware of this.

I'm not taking sides but if i were running a team thats what I would expect my drivers to do, or they'd be out on their elbows. Remember of course that the drivers title is of little significance, the key is the manufacturers, that sells cars, advertising space and pays the drivers their contracts!
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.