Alonso screwing Hamilton in qualifying

[checkered]

... they are businesses who seek for success instead of problems.

I think what the stewards are saying is that McLaren (and Alonso) were out of line in picking which kind of success they'd rather have? The team had the qualifying "in the bag". They already knew for a 99,9% fact that they'd secure a 1-2.

... the initial fault is down to Hamilton for not obeying the team. He clearly rejected to let pass Alonso in order to get him an extra lap.

I fail to understand how, when cars are running seconds apart, their order of running at the time would impede the team from calling a driver of their choosing for a stop? Just open the radio and say: "You'll both pit the next lap, (driver1) first, (driver2) second", no matter in which order they happen to be. While Hamilton drew his own conclusions of the running order on the track, he wasn't given a chance to obey or disobey any command regarding the order of pitstops. He wasn't informed of the execution of the latter pitstop in any meaningful way. Instead, he got to look at his team mate's gearbox for 30 seconds or so.

McLaren stated it held up Alonso and he waited as expected. This is fact can be true since they appear to do that all the time in order to set the best possible time as late as possible in the session, for both cars.
I totally disagree with the stewards that they do not find this believable.

It is a fact that the out lap has to be driven with a certain speed to retain the operating temperature of the tyres. It is a fact that there are opportune moments to go on track. Only Hamilton wasn't informed how this was going to be achieved, which already put him in a precarious position. In fact, he was misinformed. We've seen all sorts of human errors in F1, so they do exist.

This didn't look like one, to me at least. Hamilton was sitting in his car, dumbfounded, and even if the initial sequence of events was perhaps originated by his own action, the team had had ample opportunity to correct it in a rational fashion way before the final seconds of the quali. And judging by the actions of the pit crew and pit wall, all biding their 20 - 30 seconds and not scrambling around frenetically to correct an unexpected situation, that's what they elected to do.

I'm not commenting on the severity of the punishment, I really don't know how to appraise that.

[Rob W]

This is just outrageous. The FIA is treating their teams like they are babies while in fact they are businesses who seek for success instead of problems.

I agree. This is just another example of marshall's meddling in the game. Half the people out there will think Alonso 'did it' to hinder Hamilton when the real story has been cleared up by McLaren - a series of events which just ended with an unfortunate result - no malice, no deliberate attempt to hinder someone.

Qualifying investigations like this should only be instigated if a team/driver starts the process. This sort of stuff leaves far too much leeway for the marshalls to read too far into every little move made - seemingly with the preconception that it is to gain unfair advantage when 99% of the time it's not.

(altho, sometimes teams do deserve being treated like babies )

Rob W

[vyselegend]

I just read the news and I'm stunt by the possible point streaping for Mac Laren.

It's hard to comment accurately on Alonso's penality, we don't have datas as usual, and the incident was suspect, to say the least.
Fernando and Ron both sound fishy, the move is effectively reminding Schuey's "performance" in Monaco 2006 qualy.

With a huge difference though, Mac Laren didn't impede any other team's qualy, actually only impeded themselves, thus they didn't gain any unfair advantage, so it is not a matter for the stewards to investigate. It's private affair for Mac Laren. The only case where I'd understand officials to put their nose in this would be if Hamilton asked for clarification from outside the team. (he's the one who has been impeded after all). So maybe in this case Alonso should be punished, but the sanction over Mac Laren is outrageous!

Stewards making this decision are causing far more damage to F1 than Ferrari at Monza last year or Mac Laren with their spy saga!
They are interfering directly with the outcome of the championship! Distributing and stealing points with no relation to the race! I can't even believe they have the right to do so!

Plus, Ferrari, who did nothing wrong this time, will see their name tarnished for gaining once more totally random and unfair advantage in the championship fight!

This decision sounds very much like those steward are under influence from the "stepneygate" highly mediatic saga. If Mac Laren is guilty of spy and must be punished, so be it. But it's certainly not Hungarians stewards' duty!!!

[Ciro Pabón]

Yeap. I'm updating FIA's marshalls status from Super-Douchebags to Ultra-Douchebags. It would be outrageous if it weren't ridiculous. If they were football referees they would award a penalty against your team for kicking your own goalie by mistake.

Leweasel Hamilton must be the only happy guy at McLaren. Way to go. Why don't they put a rule in place to give Hamilton the WCC and finish this thing once and for all?

[waynes]

the more i think about this ( and the more beer i take in ) i am astounded

fingers crossed for kimi later, that will really make things interesting with the circuits coming up possibly suiting the ferrari better

no ones on IRC.

what is this IRC you speak of?

[tooshaggy]

I am no big fan of Dennis and his holier than thou attitude, but this penalty seems quite harsh.

Are they getting punished for team orders?

Or are they getting punished for not getting the most performance out of each driver?

Or are they getting punished for blocking--- but in the pits????

I'm confused.
PS: Alonso is a prick.

[tooshaggy]

Yeap. I'm updating FIA's marshalls status from Super-Douchebags to Ultra-Douchebags.

I think you mean "stewards", right?
Marshalls are the people that are first responders to broke or crashed cars, often putting themselves in harms way.

[f1.redbaron]

perhaps it is because I don't like Alonso that I don't mind the decision, but despite that, I would adviese you guys to check Principessa's news section, and read the official letter from the FIA...in particular these 2 paragraphs:

Alonso was asked why he waited for some 10 seconds before leaving the pits after being given the signal to leave. His response was that he was enquiring as to whether the correct set of tires had been fitted to his car. When asked why this conversation did not take place during the 20 second period when his car sat stationary all work on it having been completed, it was stated that it was not possible to communicate by radio because of the countdown being given to him.

Reference to the circuit map shows that at the time Alonso was told he would be held for 20 seconds there were but 4 cars on the circuit, his own and those of Fisichella, Hamilton and Raikkonen. All but Raikkonen entered the pits such that there can have been no necessity to keep Alonso in the pits for 20 seconds waiting for a convenient gap in traffic in which to leave.

As for Alonso's comments, all I can say is - Are you for real

[checkered]

Are they getting punished for team orders?

Or are they getting punished for not getting the most performance out of each driver?

Or are they getting punished for blocking--- but in the pits????

You'll have to decipher the nature of the offense from this:

The Stewards find that he (i.e. Alonso) unnecessarily impeded another driver, Hamilton, and as a result he will be penalised by a loss of 5 grid positions. ...

The actions of the team in the final minutes of Qualifying are considered prejudicial to the interests of the competition and to the interests of motor sport generally.

IMHO Fernando's punishment is easier to understand. His intentional inaction was the decisive element in preventing Hamilton from making it to one more hot lap, end of. That the drivers are from the same team doesn't have anything to do with it. It is a finer line with the team's responsibility; if I understand the stewards' rationale from the wording correctly, they thought that the team's communications and actions were biased in Alonso's favour, the situation plain looked bad, and furthermore that teams are not allowed to discipline their drivers by manipulating or limiting their sporting chances in any way.

Purely as a guess, one could also imagine that actions such as Alonso's and McLaren's are deemed more serious in a situation where the team is secure in its constructors' championship standings while the drivers both have an almost equal chance of a personal championship. McLaren's appeal in the Court of Appeal will be a delicate exercise, since it will easily make it appear that the team is pinning all "blame" to Alonso (even if such portrayal wouldn't add to his punishment). I wouldn't be surprised if they got to hold on to their points after all.

Some info on Tony Scott Andrews, FIA's permanent F1 steward:
http://fia1.greencathedral.com/automoti ... icle1.html
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns16894.html

[modbaraban]

If they were football referees they would award a penalty against your team for kicking your own goalie by mistake.

I have to disagree. in football goalies don't get individual points for some sort of 'world goailes championship'. Alonso and Hamilton are rivals more than teammates. Then Ferrari in A1-Ring 2002 were fined for kicking their own... sweeper, if i follow your drift?
Although I agree that Alonso had to be punished by the stewards I can't agree with the points penalty for the team, unless the stewards have a good evidence (like radio recording) that the team ordered him to hold Hamilton for those extra seconds.

[Ciro Pabón]

Sure, modbaraban. I guess the WCC is worth nothing... We say down here that the worst deaf is the one that doesn't want to hear. I would be enlightened by your list of teams previously sanctioned by decissions that affected one of his pilots... I'm specially interested in knowing since when Ferrari has allowed FIA to hear their "private" radio chat and why they refused for years to allow stewards (sorry, tooshaggy) to hear them talking.

[wunderkind]

If they were football referees they would award a penalty against your team for kicking your own goalie by mistake.

I have to disagree. in football goalies don't get individual points for some sort of 'world goailes championship'. Alonso and Hamilton are rivals more than teammates. Then Ferrari in A1-Ring 2002 were fined for kicking their own... sweeper, if i follow your drift?
Although I agree that Alonso had to be punished by the stewards I can't agree with the points penalty for the team, unless the stewards have a good evidence (like radio recording) that the team ordered him to hold Hamilton for those extra seconds.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I dont like the way McLaren did what they did. Surely there would have been a better way to adjust the number of laps allocated to each driver and the order which they go out onto the track.

I think the stewards at the Hungarian Grand Prix has to take into account the fact that McLaren had the pole and 2nd position sewn up and the outcome hasnt really changed anything. If Hamilton had put his final qualifying lap in, it would still be a McLaren 1-2.

Furthermore, Alonso could be on a different strategy to Hamilton and McLaren was trying to maximise the probability of winning. This is a legitimate and accepted way of conducting a team's racing strategy.

But the sight of Ron Dennis slamming his headphone down and had his arm around Alonso's tender after what happened might have given the Race Stewards reasons to suspect foul play.

One might say the FIA has no right to intervene as to how Team Managers run their teams as long as what they do would not alter the outcome of the race like the Ferrari fiasco in the A1 Ring in 2002.

In the DTM (German Touring Car Championship) race last weekend. The Audi driver Alexandre Premat let his Audi teammate Martin Tomczyk through on the final lap to take the win so Tomczyk could maintain his Championship lead. If it was in Formula 1, it would have the Audi team would have had their race win taken away. But no action was required because Mercedes Benz didnt complain to the DTM race stewards and the race stewards also had the good sense of distinguishing between blatant team orders and good racing strategy and the every team's right to maximise their standing in the Driver's as well as the Manufacturer's Championships.

Should McLaren be penalised?

No, because they did not fix the outcome of the race and the two drivers are still free to race each other in the race tomorrow. I can only surmise what McLaren did as bad style. Nothing more.

[Ciro Pabón]

Bad style? Sorry to insist, but I wonder how a team mistake can be used to penalize a driver. To assume Alonso disobeyed team orders to "damage" the marvelous lap (the lap that Hamilton "surely" was going to make), against tangible proof that shows that Alonso did not is astounding. All news I've read assure Alonso's engineer ordered him to stay and counted him down through his pitstop.

That wonder of team work, including Dennis protesting on him publicily (Dennis, the fish-blooded guy!) happened on top of team orders that put Hamilton first on the pitlane exit in the last qualy and last on the pitstops to change tyres.

The explanations from Dennis I don't get: for people watching the qualy in South America (at least the TV anchors) the handling of this qualification was a strong hint about McLaren wanting Hamilton in front.

Then, as if that was not enough, now Alonso is punished for his team's mistake, when the championship is on the balance. I think I'm not easily outraged (who does? ), but right now I think Alonso's future is not at McLaren.

He's the WDC champion, for heavens sake and let me tell you, I don't know who has helped him on his two previous championships... Now I recall Massa's hitting him on the sidepod, the "interference" Alonso did on Massa's qualy (a mile away), the punishment for swerving his car last year on a moron... Tell me, lighthouses of knowledge: when has Alonso got a FIA decission in his favor?

If someone deserved to be punished was McLaren. I would LOVE to hear Alonso on the subject. Or any driver, BTW. They must be laughing their *sses off... I guess journalist will have to wait for the other drivers to calm down and stop laughing before interviewing them.

I would also love to see McLaren developing his car without Fernando. I'd love to see how good is Hamilton on THAT. Or maybe all this year's development hints came from Hamilton, you never know. Perhaps last year Renault's performance came from Fisichella too.

[jamsbong]

Is always good to have competitive teammates and Mclaren certainly gain a lot this year from 2 mentally strong drivers. However, Ron Dennis must control the situation or a civil war could break out.

I'm a Ferrari fan but still, I have great respect for the Mclaren team.

Ron Dennis is protesting because he won't gain points for the team and certainly a 1 2 pole position is better than 1 and 6. Alonso got what he deserved but I guess Ron needs to wake and control the rivalry.

[vs331]

Its quite clear what FIA (maybe macca also) is doing.. they want to project this year's champion as a rookie prodigy who beat the reigning champion and for that they will do whatever they can to diminish Alonso's chances and make him look bad. I just hope tomorrow justice will be served and Alonso will win.