High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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TurboLag
TurboLag
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Joined: 02 Apr 2014, 10:13

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Those stats are outdated.. Just did a test today, featuring a Ducati 1299, 2012 Suzuki GSXR 1000, and a 900 whp Toyota Supra. Bikes were stock, and held up nice compared to the Supra. Me, on the Ducati, need more practice to make the pass stick though.. I've only hahad the bike for a month..

Jolle
Jolle
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Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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It's actually quite simple. For braking bikes are limited by grip of the front tire (which you can enhance with better tires) and their high center of gravity. That means a bike can roughly brake with 1G (which you have to manage holding onto the bars). For acceleration the same rules apply. The Yamaha M1 MotoGP bike has, for instance, a backwards rotating crank to bring the dynamic COG down a bit. In corners it's also all to do with how far you can bring the COG down, thus limiting cornering speeds.

For cars, with a much lower COG, so low and at such a shallow level compared to the contact point (compared to bikes), it isn't an issue. It's all grip from the tires.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Braking issues also involve weight/fade/tyres going off.. ..for cars..

This relates even to super expensive road cars like the McLaren,
see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0ZyQhROBE

& for a real open road example, see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEgwE3e4COU
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Greg Locock
Greg Locock
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Joined: 30 Jun 2012, 00:48

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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True, road cars don't usually have brakes designed for circuit work. I wonder if you can work out why? Or has someone posted a youtube explaining it for you?

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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& road bikes don't get carbon-carbon brakes on the showroom floor either..
..nor are their racing variant Superbikes permitted to use them, unlike pursang Moto G.P...

Such brakes, or ceramic alternatives - are a high cost option for top level road cars though..

So what is your point Greg? That cars are heavier & tax their brakes & tyres more?
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Greg Locock
Greg Locock
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Joined: 30 Jun 2012, 00:48

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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My point is that road cars brake systems are designed to work on the road (typically something like 10 stops in 10 minutes from 160 kph with a defined increase in brake pressure for a given performance). If what you say is true bikes don't need cf brakes on the road, probably because their braking performance is limited by the tires and cg height more than the pads and discs. Note that when road bikes are used on circuits they use race tires, and I strongly suspect they then start to see brake fade, unless they switch to racing components. So by the time you post a fast circuit time with a road bike you've already changed the two biggest consumables over to race parts anyway. Road cars are equally handicapped by brakes when used on circuits, managing the brakes is a big part of it.

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Cars have 4 tyres bikes have 2.. the car will always win in the corners.
clearly you have zero experience and zero understanding of this issue.

and ask for the 'no chance' in corners, really? you seem to forget these stats are of professional drivers doing tests.
in real life, these figures are vastly different. Not to forget the steering skills of the driver.

I will admit that i generally place better brakes on my bikes and spend more attention to perfect tires, compared to cars, where i tend to spend less attention to that detail.

but i take corners [ even slow ones ] vastly much faster on a bike then in a car, and corner them deeply in a smooth line.
In a car, you'll have to search the perfect braking point and the perfect angle to go through the corner the best you can.
the general driver is simply not capable of this , and more importantly, their vehicle is not in perfect all-new shape.

Yes, as in braking, a car IS able to span less of a braking distance compared to a motorbike. That is true, and yes, the fact the car has 4 wheels to put to use in a stable matter gives them braking benefit....

however, in real life, drivers brake far earlier than motorbike drivers will brake, AND, will have much more trouble angling their car in the 'perfect' manner.

In a bike, you sense and feel the track/street far more in a natural sense, you get much more response, and because of visibility and freedom you anticipate the track much better, meaning, that you are able to judge the situation much better.

The biggest 'mistake' most motorbike drivers make whom try to perform are that they, indeed, brake too much in a straight line, and don't use the benefits of the bike. A bike can tilt extremely far in a corner, and can take a corner faster.
there is too far tilting, which will result in a slide because the loss of grip. but most bike drivers i see sit too upright and brake too long and then are 'overly' carefull into the corner [ whereas in a car, you essentially just can slam it into the corner ]. If you take confidence and master your bike limits then you will destroy the general car driver with ease.

Either way, accelaration of a bike kills any chance of a sportscar, even if it's a serious one.

And you can't compare a 911 GT2 or GT3 or a multi-million dollar Ferrari FXX to a 250cc bike offcourse.

I enjoy a ninja and GSX-R most, and i'm not talking about the overhyped hayabusa. Only on a long long straight will a car have a chance of 'catching up' to a motorbike [which can easily do 250+, too], but then the corner comes up and it's gone with the wind.

and offcourse, in daily drive? there's not even a fair chance for any car.
Last edited by Manoah2u on 11 May 2015, 01:43, edited 2 times in total.
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Greg Locock
Greg Locock
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Joined: 30 Jun 2012, 00:48

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Possibly he doesn't, but then as predicted this entire thread is full of opinion rather than fact. I thought the comment on braking distances was perceptive and useful.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Well, the facts come out when the empirical/experiential views..
.. of those who have extensively done both - are shown - for their worth..

Interestingly, the quickest lap around the fast flowing Phillip Is G.P. track is near identical..
..for a 250cc Aprilia (2T) road bike & a Subaru WRX AWD road car, (both in regulation race trim)..

& for very hard braking, having confidence in your skill is much more a factor for riding a bike,
rather than simply mashing a pedal in a car with your foot, this is certainly true..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Here are some times for hi-performance showroom production cars around the Laguna Seca track..

http://www.motortrend.com/features/laguna_lap/

Just for (unfair) comparison, the Q-lap record for production based Superbike (WSBK racing) machines is 1:21.8..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

User avatar
bdr529
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Joined: 08 Apr 2011, 19:49
Location: Canada

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Autocar did this test last year McLaren 12C vs Ducati 1199 Panigale S
I must say I'm quite surprised the Ducati was a match through the fast corners, :shock: as was Sutcliffe, :D
I expected the car in the slow corners, and the bike to rocket out of the corners, so no surprise there just the fast stuff

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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This clip features the new mech-supercharged Kawasaki: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weZ_N06LErk
& even shows ( @ 4:10 in) -how far things have come in ~40 years of road bike performance..

(Funnily enough the old 'un sounds a bit like a current F1 car!)
Last edited by J.A.W. on 11 May 2015, 04:14, edited 1 time in total.
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Greg Locock
Greg Locock
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Joined: 30 Jun 2012, 00:48

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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JAW- Got weblinks for those PI times?And don't forget that on the Nordschleife 20.8 km the fastest bike is slightly quicker than a production Honda Civic. woo woo.

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Got a link to those official 'Green Hell' lap times G.L.?
Its been a while since bikes raced there..
..last 500 G.P. there was way back in 1980,
& that with a race winning average speed of 163.6km/h,( ton-up in the old money)..
So yeah - I do doubt that a 'showroom production Civic' could manage to lap near/close to even that ancient mark..

The official P.Is. site includes the lap records for the various classes..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Greg Locock
Greg Locock
238
Joined: 30 Jun 2012, 00:48

Re: High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

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Yes for civic see my post Sun May 10, 2015 8:37 pm, fastest bike over 20.8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqcEEonF0Uk

PI laptime records that are accessible do not include an aprilla 250 roadbike as fastest roadbike, an dodn't have times for roafdcars. Please provide links.