High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

[J.A.W.]

So to summarise the thread thus far: "Bikes are best and anyone who disagrees is wrong". Ok, got it. Let's all move on to a new subject then.

Funny post.. & sums up the irony of postmodern/emotive/subjective hipsterism, L.O.L...
But then, hipsters aren't into actual quantitatively evaluated performance parameters, are they, just posing..

[Manoah2u]

Of course F1 & Moto G.P. stand comparison - as the 'top' formula of racing cars & bikes respectively.
& as noted a number of times in this thread, the downforce is what makes the lap speed difference.

not true, as F1 is an open-wheeler formula class, not road car class.

A comparison of MotoGP versus WEC, LeMans, DTM would be an appropriate comparison of cars versus bikes.

formula cars are in another league of itself, and is a discussion done before
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15141

so no, it's not fitting in the discussion of road cars vs motorbikes to compare f1 to motogp.


and no, both cars and bikes have their positives and negatives.
there's no 'one is better' than the other, because they are 2 different things construced on 2 different philosophies.
It's like comparing a helicopter to an airplane. a bicycle to a kanu.

[Manoah2u]

here's a nice comparison to end-all

[J.A.W.]

Actually the bike in that vid comparo is a Honda CBR road bike, not a Moto G.P. race bike..

& WSBK Superbikes may be roughly compared to GT Sports car racing in principle..
..both being based on series production machines, but both F1 & Moto G.P. sit at
the top of the tree prestige/speed-wise in their respective 4 & 2 wheel sporting realms.

If aero-downforce had been banned from F1, or allowed for Moto G.P. then lap average speeds
would be much closer, as A-G pointed out earlier..

This thread is concerned with road vehicles ( albeit they do race), which limit aero-downforce
& tyre tech to 'even the playing field' between cars & bikes in everyday use..

I recall having a ~100 mile duel over a mountain/rolling hill & valley country highway driving a sporty coupe
against a well ridden big inch Harley-Davidson motorcycle.

He could make time in acceleration & overtaking traffic, but in the high speed stuff I could catch him up,
& pass - only to be overtaken again on reaching the next town where he could simply ride down the centreline,
- past all the traffic.. it was an enjoyable dice, & we maintained an equivalent average speed the whole
way.. if he'd been on a superbike, however, I'd be outdistanced everywhere, no doubt..

& as I have done in turn - while riding fast motorcycles.. ..& such comparisons are valid topics for discussion..

[J.A.W.]

& even a big fat Suzuki Hayabusa can be made to go hard around corners.. ..well enough to beat cars..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cILugf4-6Jw

[Just_a_fan]

So to summarise the thread thus far: "Bikes are best and anyone who disagrees is wrong". Ok, got it. Let's all move on to a new subject then.

Funny post.. & sums up the irony of postmodern/emotive/subjective hipsterism, L.O.L...
But then, hipsters aren't into actual quantitatively evaluated performance parameters, are they, just posing..

No idea what a "hipster" is, postmodern or otherwise.

It's not about posing, it's about watching the dynamic of this thread whereby people are bringing different views to the discussion and you are dismissing them. It appears you dismiss them solely on the basis of them being opposite to your view.

Phil, for example, has brought published information as well as personal anecdotal information to the discussion. You appear to dismiss him out of hand. Others likewise.

This thread isn't a technical discussion, it's a religious sermon on the greatness of the motorbike over the car. [-o< Woe betide anyone who worships at the alter of the car.

[J.A.W.]

No idea what a "hipster" is, postmodern or otherwise.

It's not about posing, it's about watching the dynamic of this thread whereby people are bringing different views to the discussion and you are dismissing them. It appears you dismiss them solely on the basis of them being opposite to your view.

Phil, for example, has brought published information as well as personal anecdotal information to the discussion. You appear to dismiss him out of hand. Others likewise.

This thread isn't a technical discussion, it's a religious sermon on the greatness of the motorbike over the car. [-o< Woe betide anyone who worships at the alter of the car. [/quote]



Well J-A-F, (as per your fairly reasonable initial post), you could actually present some meaningful data
..rather than as now, posting what appears to be.. ..simple blathering & thus tantamount to trolling..
( To paraphrase C. Hitchens - "What is asserted sans evidence - may be dismissed accordingly")

& I suggest you clearly display the muddled conflation of emotive ideation typical of postmodernist 'values'
( worship of alternators? WTF?) as well as blatantly ignoring such meaningful information as already posted/provided..

.. such as my own topical anecdote of a duel in which I was driving a sporty car,
& matching a large, powerful ( but not sporty) motorcycle over distance - on the highway..
..which does tend to confirm the view - you put up - in your 1st post..

So, indeed, far from one-eyed partisanship from me - in fact..

Whereas you J-A-F, might do better to take your own advice & just "move on" to another topic..
.. esp' - if all you have left to add here - is snark..

[sgth0mas]

If you already know it all, and don't care to hear other opinions...why did you start this thread?

There is no explaining the contrary to someone who is sure they're right. They will not let facts or evidence get in the way of their reality.

[J.A.W.]

If you already know it all, and don't care to hear other opinions...why did you start this thread?

There is no explaining the contrary to someone who is sure they're right. They will not let facts or evidence get in the way of their reality.

You do know what 'irony' is don't you Sgt-s?

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt ,that you display irony in this case - for your posts in this thread..

Since you have offered nothing useful pertaining to the topic, & now repeatedly clog the thread with
seemingly irrelevant "opinion".. (please refer to my reply to your previous, pretty much identical post)..
& so on .. .. so, do kindly, cease & desist your dogging.. there's a good chap.. ta..

[J.A.W.]

This US Motor Trend shootout between Ferrari & Ducati seems fair.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPNs3v4m7TA
..& tends to confirm the topic consensus so far..

[Greg Locock]

Interestingly, the quickest lap around the fast flowing Phillip Is G.P. track is near identical..
..for a 250cc Aprilia (2T) road bike & a Subaru WRX AWD road car, (both in regulation race trim)..

GL:Got weblinks for those PI times?

JAW:See here - for P.Is. times.. https://www.phillipislandcircuit.com.au ... ap-records

Which leads to

https://www.phillipislandcircuit.com.au ... n_2013.pdf

no WRX or Aprilla

https://www.phillipislandcircuit.com.au ... ctober.pdf

no WRX, Aprilia 1m45

https://www.phillipislandcircuit.com.au ... March1.pdf

no WRX

So, an unknown car driven in an unknown fashion was possible beaten around a track by a known motorbike. Yes, you really have made a convincing case . The stupid thing is despite your deceptions and ridiculous assertions I agree, motorbikes can be faster than cars on the road and on circuits. But it is very much on a case by case basis.

[Gaz.]

Why are the comparisons always between a race replica bike designed to ape the racing machinery, with focus on pure (affordable) speed with no compromise on anything in a quest for performance, and a 1500kg+ GT car?

A Radical is the car world's answer to a GSX-R, it looks like a LMP2 car with a tax disc and reg plates and its only purpose is performance and fun, just like the bike.

It's worth noting that the safety car delta time at the Malaysian F1 race was 2:05.000, a time good enough to qualify for the 2014 MotoGP race.

[J.A.W.]

@ Greg Locock..

"Deceptions & ridiculous assertions" eh G.L... yeah, right..
..would that be like your claiming a bog standard Civic could go near beating a contemporary Superbike? L.O.L...

At least your back-handed, belatedly-grudging admission re the actual topic eventually came through..

& of course - it depends on the particular vehicles..
Ask Glenn Seton, he got a 4cyl Group A M3 BMW around P.Is. - for a class record - in 1:45- too..
..or 'bout the same as the near contemporary Aprilia 250 production bike..

[J.A.W.]

Why are the comparisons always between a race replica bike designed to ape the racing machinery, with focus on pure (affordable) speed with no compromise on anything in a quest for performance, and a 1500kg+ GT car?

A Radical is the car world's answer to a GSX-R, it looks like a LMP2 car with a tax disc and reg plates and its only purpose is performance and fun, just like the bike.

It's worth noting that the safety car delta time at the Malaysian F1 race was 2:05.000, a time good enough to qualify for the 2014 MotoGP race.

You've got it the wrong way around..

The bike 'racing machinery' apes the production showroom stuff,( the G.P. racers used to be pursang 2-strokes)

& The Radical does find a home for a wrecked Suzuki power unit,
- but seems to have pretty much a full set of both car & bike disadvantages in the one device..

&yeah, 'bout how many laps could that safety car manage before it cooked its tyres & brakes?
Doubt it could come anywhere close to a Moto G.P. race average speed - for the whole race distance..

[Shrieker]

I know some people might be furious, but why don't we compare how bike racers fare in cars and car racers fare on bikes