High Performance Road Cars VS Bikes.

[Andres125sx]

Ah.. remind me.. & the topic is? R-o-a-d machines

Something you only remind when it does support your POV.... otherwise comparing a racing bike with a production car is fine

& even a big fat Suzuki Hayabusa can be made to go hard around corners.. ..well enough to beat cars..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cILugf4-6Jw

Hmmm.. now remind me A-125.. does the Suzuki GSX-R 1300 compete in WSBK, or - is it Moto G.P.? L.O.L...

So it´s only WSBK or MotoGP what counts as racing bikes....

I guess those slicks the Suzuki use are road legal and don´t affect the road cars vs road bikes duel, nor affect the cornering speed

[J.A.W.]

According to the formal racing body governing World Championships.. yes, how can you not know that?

& how did you not notice that the M-B was a German Touring Car - DTM - homologation unit?

[Andres125sx]

According to the formal racing body governing World Championships.. yes, how can you not know that?

& how did you not notice that the M-B was a German Touring Car - DTM - homologation unit?

So now it´s not racing bikes, but bikes competing on world championships what does not count....

I´m tired of this thread, and specially of you moving the goalposts

Bye

[J.A.W.]

Bye

Promises, promises, A-125.. & if only that were true, it would probably be your most sensible post yet!

& No - GSX-R 1300s don't count for FIM World Championships..

[Phil]

As has been said on the brakes, a very well ridden bike is pretty close to a sports car, around fast bends, there is probably nothing in it, out of the bends the bike wins and along the straights, up to a (??) speed, then the bike will win. It really is the low-speed corners that are the problem.....

In my experience, even on mountain passes or public roads, a well driven fast car is easily as fast as a bike in practice, unless you encounter traffic. Irregardless what you're driving; assuming a IQ higher than a vegetable ( ) and some regard to safety and others, you will not be pushing much outside the typical speed-limit at all. So, speeds in excess of 75-100mph/120-160kmh are not an option, so one of the bikes biggest advantages (to pull immense gaps through acceleration and higher speeds) is erraticated. What is left, are lots of corners in between and any straight that will see some advantage go to bikers as they accelerate out of corners. Anything from braking to outright cornering speed is where you usually catch them, as corners below any reasonable speed (<70kmh) are painful to watch.

On the track, bikes (driven by friends and at the limit) I've encountered in most corners are also much slower, at least vs. my car on road-legal semi-slicks and relative light weight (~1000kg with me as a driver). Twisty bits (left-right-left combinations) are even more slower, as a bike will take some time to lean from one corner into the next, whereas in my car, it corners like a house-fly. The transition between braking and cornering happens instantenous too - on a bike, it doesn't, as there is some time between when a bike goes off the brakes and is able to turn in (weight transfer to the front under braking is brutal) and how fast he can turn in. Most of the time, the bike can make up for those deficits, either when he is blocking my path in the corner (and my care not to kill him by muscling myself through) or by out accelerating me on the straights (even short ones) and pulls out ridiculous gaps I then have to make up in the corners until I am stuck behind again. On tracks with hair pins, the best places to overtake bikes is under braking in front of the corner.

The bike isn't without advantages though. Due to their limited width, they can often take better lines through some corners and therefore achieve a wieder radius than I can in the car. That's about it really.

On different tracks, the gap to bikes might be bigger or smaller. It all depends on how many straights there are for the bikes to use their advantage. The more corners there are, the narrower the gap is.

And J.A.W.s; For the record; I don't need to drive a bike, but i've driven with well driven ones on and off actual track(s) to know what I'm talking about. Which is also why I don't think much of Hayabusas. Some of the quicker bikes I've encountered are indeed R1s, even the R6. Light and maneuverable. On the right road and with the right rider, much quicker than a heavy Hayabusa. Yes, they are all quicker than I am on outright acceleration and straight line speed. They also have bigger balls then I do too (they need to, to drive at even a comparable messure to what I can easily in a car), I'm happy to concede that. So what? Still doesn't change the fact that they are slower in (most) corners and under braking.

No matter what driver you take or what bike; as long as a bike is what it is, you can not beat physics and a bike will never beat a car on braking or in (slow-to mid) corners. If you add cars with downforce, slicks, even high-speed-corners will see the car prevail on the simple basis of physics.

[J.A.W.]

Simply claiming "physics" - sans evidence - does not stack up Phil..

Especially as the empirical results/ actual facts show that you are wrong..

& isn't it true that Switzerland insists on extra-restrictive power-sapping modifications on bikes sold there?
With no racing, or loud exhaust pipes either?
& you don't/can't ride.. ( Nor can your friends with bikes either, it seems)
Too funny..

[Phil]

What facts? That at the end of some arbitrary track a bike occasionally is faster than some car without taking care to analyze why? Amusingly though, you haven't responded to the 'Ring comparison I noted. Even more amusing; you were the one who brought up that 7:10 lap time of that R1. Have you bothered to watch it side by side with say, the Nissan GT-R? Or... the Zonda-R? The 'Ring is fascinating because on so many levels, it is easily comparable to typical public B roads: Dangerous, bumpy, lots of corners and, well, lots of (longer) straights too (which is the only reason why the bikes are as quick as they are).

Not sure how to respond to the legality of loud exhausts... maybe I missed something, but how so do they make bikes quicker at cornering? Or braking? Is this even relevant?

And for the record about Switzerland; We do have many laws, but on the whole, it's pretty much the same as in EU-land in regards to legality (so, no in regards to restrictive power). Most bikes here that are being driven on the roads are far from legal in regards to exhaust and other things. It's just inherently hard to enforce. And another little fact; there are no tracks here and track driving doesn't mean cars or bikes have actually got to be legal (they are not required to be).

[andylaurence]

If you want to compare 4 wheels to two, isn't karting vs bikes a better comparison? They have similar engines, luggage capacity and rider safety. At the Guernsey hillclimb last year, a 125cc kart managed a 32.86, whilst the best bike managed a 34.08. Comparatively at Castle Combe (where Padgetts go to test for the Northwest 200 and Isle of Man TT as it's the only circuit fast enough), the outright kart record (250cc) is 1:10.56, whilst the outright bike record (ZX10R) is 1:10.911.

You may now continue the willy waving...

[emaren]

As has been said on the brakes, a very well ridden bike is pretty close to a sports car, around fast bends, there is probably nothing in it, out of the bends the bike wins and along the straights, up to a (??) speed, then the bike will win. It really is the low-speed corners that are the problem.....

In my experience, even on mountain passes or public roads, a well driven fast car is easily as fast as a bike in practice, unless you encounter traffic. Irregardless what you're driving; assuming a IQ higher than a vegetable ( ) and some regard to safety and others, you will not be pushing much outside the typical speed-limit at all. So, speeds in excess of 75-100mph/120-160kmh are not an option, so one of the bikes biggest advantages (to pull immense gaps through acceleration and higher speeds) is erraticated. What is left, are lots of corners in between and any straight that will see some advantage go to bikers as they accelerate out of corners. Anything from braking to outright cornering speed is where you usually catch them, as corners below any reasonable speed (<70kmh) are painful to watch.

I used to live near one of the best motorcycle roads in the US, Ortega Highway. I would often ride the road to visit friends that lived on the other side of the hill. Obviously if I am riding over the hill I would take my Triumph Speed Triple. A 1050cc, 130hp naked bike. I would ride quickly, but safely and well within my limits.

You would not believe the number of times some clown would drive within inches of me in their tarted up BMW or Miata or even their Porsche 911.

In their minds they were probably racing me and showing me how much faster their car is than my 'bike.

In my mind I am thinking 'what a total moron, only a complete retard would try to race anyone on the public highway.'

On the track, bikes (driven by friends and at the limit) I've encountered in most corners are also much slower, at least vs. my car on road-legal semi-slicks and relative light weight (~1000kg with me as a driver). Twisty bits (left-right-left combinations) are even more slower, as a bike will take some time to lean from one corner into the next, whereas in my car, it corners like a house-fly. The transition between braking and cornering happens instantenous too - on a bike, it doesn't, as there is some time between when a bike goes off the brakes and is able to turn in (weight transfer to the front under braking is brutal) and how fast he can turn in. Most of the time, the bike can make up for those deficits, either when he is blocking my path in the corner (and my care not to kill him by muscling myself through) or by out accelerating me on the straights (even short ones) and pulls out ridiculous gaps I then have to make up in the corners until I am stuck behind again. On tracks with hair pins, the best places to overtake bikes is under braking in front of the corner.

I would not want to share a track with you.

Especially not if I am on a bike.

On a bike you pretty much have to get all of the braking done in a straight (ish) line, some degree or trail braking is possible on the arc towards the apex, but for the majority of riders, the corners will be, brake, turn in, drive through the apex, full power as soon as the bike is mostly up-right.

The numerous video's in this thread that compare cars and bike will show you that even something as non-sporty as the Ducati Drivel is capable of stopping from 150mph within a gnats knee distance (and time) of an Audi R8 V10. So you are not going to drive into the back of a well ridden bike on a corner.

The video of the MP12/4 vs the Ducati show that in all but the lowest speed corners, the Ducati wins. And, if you really take notice, even in the slowest corners the differential is only a couple of kmh.

If you have a 1000kg (with you in it) car, then you are already way outside of the average cars. Short of a Beck LM800, Ultima, Caterham, Westfield etc you are not in a normal car. So you cannot compare easily.

However, my aforementioned Speed Triple is faster around Willow than a Duratec powered 'seven.

Obviously your mind is made up though, you will not accept anecdotal or video evidence that a bike can be as fast as a car, let alone faster.....

[Phil]

Obviously your mind is made up though, you will not accept anecdotal or video evidence that a bike can be as fast as a car, let alone faster.....

Not at all; I'm not sure why you would think that. I never disputed that bikes might end up producing quicker lap times than [insert car]. I maintained from the beginning that the bike has its advantages, but braking and cornering at especially mid to slow corners isn't among them. If and by how much a bike beats a car in the end depends on the car it was competing against and how many straights (or high speed corners) there were to enable the bike to pull out its massive advantage.

Fair enough, I didn't bother to watch any of the numerous videos since I didn't think there was anything to see that I didn't already know. I clicked on a few now, among the Audi R8 one, and fail to see how any of the videos dispute the above.

On braking; here's are some stats from a magazine (0-100-0mph):
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/iipcache/9800.jpg

From 26 cars, 4 were slower in braking than the bike (Suzuki GSR-R1000) in question. That is in seconds. If you look at other tests, like 100-0kmh in meters, which is more interesting IMO, the best tested I've seen do it in 32.2 meters. Bikes, with ABS, are typically around 40 meters. 8 meters is quite significant - also bear in mind that it is significantly more challenging to brake at the limit in a bike while remaining in absolute control than it is in a car. So while all the "theoretical minimum" braking distance chatter is nice; you may want to apply more error for margin on actual roads or track. Differing braking distance on an actual track means that a bike or car will have different braking points. The slower braking one will be on the brakes sooner.

Lastly; cornering speed. There's a maximum amount of cornering speed you can achieve in a bike, by the laws of physics as you can't increase your tyre width infinitly to increase grip, nor can the rider physically lean more into a corner than the bike physically allows. Most bikes within the higher end also have rather similar weights - the driver making out 25-40% of the total weight - that's just their nature. High speed corners naturally play into a bikes hands, because less weight will result in less force vs. the car. Low speed corners don't. This is of course the same in the car, as corner-speed there too is primarely a function of grip and weight.

These two elements create the situation that on an actual track; there will be situations where a bike will be braking from a higher speed (because it accelerated faster, thus is carying more speed) to a lower one (because his cornering speed on that particular corner may be slower). So in reality, you are never going to be comparing braking from equal speeds under most circumstances. On a track with lots of straights or high speed corners, a bike will naturally prevail by the sheer advantage it holds (weight + performance). On a small-ish track, lots of corners, braking, the difference will be smaller if not entirely in the cars advantage. On the former; once you're in hypercar territory and downforce is added to car, or cars with ridiculous power/weight ratios with adequate tyres and brakes, it becomes increasingly difficult for bikes to compete. See the Zonda-R for example on something like the Ring.


Frankly, I don't care either way. I like bikes. I also like cars. Bang for buck, you'll never beat a bike. And on a bike, the driver is everything. Doesn't get much better than that IMO. If it wouldn't cut my life expectancy down to 1%, I'd probably fancy something like a R1.

[Gaz.]

Why are the comparisons always between a race replica bike designed to ape the racing machinery, with focus on pure (affordable) speed with no compromise on anything in a quest for performance, and a 1500kg+ GT car?

A Radical is the car world's answer to a GSX-R, it looks like a LMP2 car with a tax disc and reg plates and its only purpose is performance and fun, just like the bike.

It's worth noting that the safety car delta time at the Malaysian F1 race was 2:05.000, a time good enough to qualify for the 2014 MotoGP race.

You've got it the wrong way around..

The bike 'racing machinery' apes the production showroom stuff,( the G.P. racers used to be pursang 2-strokes)

& The Radical does find a home for a wrecked Suzuki power unit,
- but seems to have pretty much a full set of both car & bike disadvantages in the one device..

&yeah, 'bout how many laps could that safety car manage before it cooked its tyres & brakes?
Doubt it could come anywhere close to a Moto G.P. race average speed - for the whole race distance..

The 1985 GSX-R750F was as close as the buying public could get to a Formula TT F1 bike, a series for 'superbikes' from 1949 to 1990 when it ceased due to the success of WSB.

As for how long a safety car could lap for, you're just moving the goalposts but in 2007 the safety car did 19 laps of Fuji in one sitting.

I still don't understand why a Radical or Phil's Exige are dismissed though when it is an apples and apples comparison of machinery designed solely for performance and enjoyment.

[bdr529]

The 1985 GSX-R750F was as close as the buying public could get to a Formula TT F1 bike, a series for 'superbikes' from 1949 to 1990 when it ceased due to the success of WSB.

As for how long a safety car could lap for, you're just moving the goalposts but in 2007 the safety car did 19 laps of Fuji in one sitting.

I still don't understand why a Radical or Phil's Exige are dismissed though when it is an apples and apples comparison of machinery designed solely for performance and enjoyment.

Actually it was the 1986 GSX R750 R Limited that was the closest to the Formula bikes,
My older brother raced one in 87-88 in Superbike, and the Suzuki GSX-R cup, Great Bike

But Yes Gaz,
you are correct in saying that 85 GSX-R was the first that the general public could get to a race bike for the street
This is what I say is the start of Super bikes as we know them today

1985 Suzuki-GSXR-750. SERT- Suzuki Endurance Racing Team

[J.A.W.]

Actually Suzuki released their RG 500 then too, & it really was a race replica, being a fairly
mechanically close variant of their multiple World Championship winning G.P. bike - built for road use..

By comparison, the GSX-R 750 was a road bike looking for a race series..

& of course bike makers had been selling bikes that were either proper production racers, or stylised
racer-look road machines, for years earlier.. Norton did both, with their PR & JPN Commando types..

[J.A.W.]

If you want to compare 4 wheels to two, isn't karting vs bikes a better comparison? They have similar engines, luggage capacity and rider safety. At the Guernsey hillclimb last year, a 125cc kart managed a 32.86, whilst the best bike managed a 34.08. Comparatively at Castle Combe (where Padgetts go to test for the Northwest 200 and Isle of Man TT as it's the only circuit fast enough), the outright kart record (250cc) is 1:10.56, whilst the outright bike record (ZX10R) is 1:10.911.

You may now continue the willy waving...

What about Willy's wife & the new bub?


Pretty sure that Supercarts, while certainly impressive track machines with their fat slick tyres & downforce..
..& light, powerful 2-stroke race engines ..are not public road vehicles in every day use..

[J.A.W.]

Obviously your mind is made up though, you will not accept anecdotal or video evidence that a bike can be as fast as a car, let alone faster.....

Fair enough, I didn't bother to watch any of the numerous videos since I didn't think there was anything to see that I didn't already know.

& BOOM! Just like that.. any/all credibility blown away.. & all those lines of type wasted.. L.O.L...