VW Enters.................

[Manoah2u]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/32688667

Red Bull say they will quit F1 unless Audi join forces with them

Red Bull say they will pull out of Formula 1 if either they cannot get a competitive engine or Audi do not join forces with the team.

Helmut Marko said Red Bull were interested in doing a deal that would see Audi enter F1.

"If we don't have a competitive engine in the near future, then either Audi is coming or we are out," said Marko.

But he denied Red Bull had already been in formal talks with the German company, which is part of the Volkswagen Group.

Marko told BBC Sport: "There are so many rumours. Officially there was no request or talks. The VW Group first has to sort out who will be the new chief of support, who will run the brand of VW, and when they have sorted all these things maybe then they can think about what they are doing in motorsport.

"I was on the phone but not to the people you think."

Red Bull have a contractual commitment to race in F1 until 2020.

sources in the German car industry believe Audi chairman Rupert Stadler is keen on an F1 entry

Officially, nothing has been penned.
I believe that unofficially, the paperwork is ready, together with already conducted research and a ready F1 engine prototype, and it just needs signing and a green light, which never would have happend under piech, but the 'new' head now is an entire different story, but obviously, there are some things to solve first within the VW group itself.

Either way, VW is upping their motorsport program and i find it atleast interesting to say the least on the reveal of this piece of technology:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11505109357 ... ylinder-10

Following the new twin-turbo 6.0-liter W12 TSI engine, Volkswagen has also revealed a new 1.0-liter TSI unit
and has a maximum power of 272 PS (200 kW) and 270 Nm (199 lb-ft) of torque, and it features a monoscroll
turbocharger and an e-booster system.

VAG is updating their engines and cars, including performance cars. It would be fitting to step into F1 and use it as a showcase to promote their brand even further - imagine the sales when they manage to atleast compete against Mercedes, and even manage to beat them?

and then, there's offcourse still ecclestone

"They (Red Bull) won't leave," Ecclestone said. "I want to avoid that."

RedBull Audi is almost impossible not to happen anymore. I'm expecting Domenicali to sit alongside Christian Horner in the Red-Bull Audi team in 2016.

[wesley123]

If i were Audi i surely wouldn't commit to a F1 programme with a team that threatens to leave F1 as soon as things don't go their way. Doesn't really sound like a stable platform to me.

[Manoah2u]

If i were Audi i surely wouldn't commit to a F1 programme with a team that threatens to leave F1 as soon as things don't go their way. Doesn't really sound like a stable platform to me.

How many times has Ferrari threatend to quit when it didn't go their way? Even mercedes did.

honestly, i'd take RedBulls/Marko's words with a grain of salt. Its politics, too, remember?
They're clearly not interested in Renault anymore and they know the rules are hampering them as their current team
setup can't deal with the new rules as they want to.
Thus, they want atleast a revision of the rules, and try to get them a bit more in their league.

To manage that, you must get the rulemakers [ FIA ] to pay attention to your demands / cries,
and so what do you do? Yes, you focus attencion on yourself and act/behave exactly like RedBull is doing now.

Remember Mercedes just 2 years ago stating that the team needs to perform or they're going to step out of the sport?
Yes, they said that, and look where they're now.

How many times have Ferrari said they'll leave? i lost count, that much.

cut out with the nonsense that RedBull doesn't deserve to be in F1 because Marko speaks like a donkey and simply because they're a company that makes disgusting energy drinks. The team have done enough to deserve their position in F1, and should be taken seriously.

I think the redbull-hating is out of place. They have the full right to complain and say what they say, exactly like other teams have done in the past and will do in the future.

[FoxHound]

Ok, I'll try word it differently.

Should Audi go it alone, they will need to spend 100s of millions just to get the factory up and running.
They would also need to recruit renowned names from existing front running teams.
This in itself will take a few years to gel together, as we have seen with Mercedes and Red Bull.
Then you have the thorny issue of exposure.

This leads to a critical question. Do Audi/VW have the stomach to see them being beaten regularly from the off, with no guarantee of success at the end of the "gelling cycle"?

I really dunno man. Those suits want results yesterday.

When the alternative really is very simple, cheaper, and has a proven track record of success.
Red Bull.

All Audi do is make the engines(good engines one hopes),
add a few pennies into the Red Bull pot, and take the plaudits for getting Red Bull back to winning ways.

Job's a good 'un.

[wesley123]

If i were Audi i surely wouldn't commit to a F1 programme with a team that threatens to leave F1 as soon as things don't go their way. Doesn't really sound like a stable platform to me.

How many times has Ferrari threatend to quit when it didn't go their way? Even mercedes did.

True. But on the other hand, those two don't need a manufacturer to back them, since they are manufacturers themselves.

red Bull has said some harsh things about Renault, and that is something that Renault really doesn't like. Insulting your partners like that is a pretty bad way to do business and in my view just shows Red Bull's arrogance as a whole. They seem to think that because they "schooled" everyone in the past few years that they are as untouchable as Mercedes or Ferrari are.

As an engine manufacturer I'd seriously think twice before I jump in the boat with RBR. Those remarks they made towards Renault are seriously damaging to the relationship between the two, as well as to the whole Renault marketing program. It's just bad for business.

FoxHound made a good point as well. An F1 entry would cost some serious bucks and even then with that investment, you've got no guarantee of any return.

At Le Mans in 2010 Audi broke the distance record previously thought to be unbreakable after the addition of the Porsche Curves after Porsche set the distance record in 1970. They have booked some serious success since 2000 and even the record of overall wins at Le Mans is now in reach. If/when they manage to break that record, that achievement will be timeless. Win a WCC in F1? Not so much. It would be stupid for Audi to throw that away for an attempt at F1 that has a bigger chance of not working out than of actually being a success.

Plus, seeing how everyone is saying F1 is a sinking ship, why would you want to board a sinking ship?

[Manoah2u]

F1 isn't a sinking ship at all. There may be some issues but which sport doesn't. Meanwhile, never underestimate politics and games to achieve a goal that 'directly' can't be achieved. The rules need some revision and that is going to happen with the 2017+ revisions.

Red Bull said some harsh words, yes, but - weren't they right? I think the results speak for themselves. The lack of performance isn't even the biggest thing for RedBull. They don't even complain about that so much. It's the reliability that kills them, and let's agree there, that is simply unacceptable especially regarding the fact the Renault engine is actually the most expensive one.

Again, i think RedBull has already decided to go with Audi, and they're trying to easier escape their contracts with Renault.
Perhaps one could say it's generally not so smart to burn the bridges you crossed, but, then again, it's mere politics.
You want to get rid of Alonso, you stop focussing on his talents and start pointing at flaws. You gain Vettel, you stop adressing he is only good because of Mr. Newey and brand him as the second coming of Schumacher. Politics.

RedBull Renault is over. It's just not salvageable anymore. RedBull sure won't quit F1, even if they say so. Thus, welcome Audi/VW.

simple as 1.2.3.

[kudryavchik]

We shouldn't wait audi for the nearest future. Why was listed above, internal business and ceo game + growth of wec.

And, also, redbull cannot make vw to come in f1)))

[wesley123]

F1 isn't a sinking ship at all. There may be some issues but which sport doesn't. Meanwhile, never underestimate politics and games to achieve a goal that 'directly' can't be achieved. The rules need some revision and that is going to happen with the 2017+ revisions.

The sinking ship part was me playing in on the general paranoia because Bernie is evil blah blah blah

Red Bull said some harsh words, yes, but - weren't they right? I think the results speak for themselves. The lack of performance isn't even the biggest thing for RedBull. They don't even complain about that so much. It's the reliability that kills them, and let's agree there, that is simply unacceptable especially regarding the fact the Renault engine is actually the most expensive one.

Sure, i agree Red Bull is right in it's criticism. But that doesn't mean it's right in terms of a partnership/marketing standpoint. If you invested millions into something you wouldn't like it either if they publicly criticized you and only you. That's not fair towards you, nor the effort you've put in to make the whole thing work.

Again, i think RedBull has already decided to go with Audi, and they're trying to easier escape their contracts with Renault.

Red Bull does have their experience with escaping a contract like that. They had a engine contract with Ferrari in '06 all the way to '09 I think. But when they wanted the Renault they simply shifted the Ferrari contract to Toro Rosso.

Perhaps one could say it's generally not so smart to burn the bridges you crossed, but, then again, it's mere politics.

Sure, to a certain extent it is politics. but there also is a point where it is too far, and Red Bull are right at that point.

You want to get rid of Alonso, you stop focussing on his talents and start pointing at flaws. You gain Vettel, you stop adressing he is only good because of Mr. Newey and brand him as the second coming of Schumacher. Politics.

I do get what they get at, don't get me wrong. It's certainly a good idea to trash talk someone else to save your own ass at the moment, at some point Renault will just get sick and tired of it and call it quits. But then you get to a point where you show yourself to be someone who can't be trusted, and people(or in this case, manufacturers) will certainly think twice before doing business with you.

RedBull Renault is over. It's just not salvageable anymore. RedBull sure won't quit F1, even if they say so. Thus, welcome Audi/VW.

simple as 1.2.3.

I'm not certain it's over. Red Bull is in the position where they got two teams, one which they want to get rid of for like 5 years already. Red Bull currently has a title sponsorship of infiniti, which is a part of the Nissan-Renault-w/e group. I'm certain they get some big bucks from that, seeing it is a title sponsor and it's presence on the car.

Throwing away the Renault deal would mean throwing away the Infiniti money, and as Mateschitz is trying to get rid of STR already I'm certain he won't like having to fill the gap with more money that infiniti has left.

Personally, I'm thinking it is more likely Red Bull Racing is gone rather than an Audi - Red Bull partnership happening.

On the other hand, there have been rumors of Renault wanting to be back in F1 as a works outfit. rumors then pointed at STR, but seeing how STR has very little facilities that would require a large investment.

I guess it would make more sense for Renault to buy out a pissed-off Red Bull Racing team.

[FW17]

If red bull had not slated renault the fans sure would have.

Of the 2 redbull and renault, it is redbull who spends more on a yearly basis, so obviously they would be pissed if they talk big (like pushing for turbo hybrid regulations) and not be able to deliver.

[SunsAnvil]

If i were at VW / Audi i would be wary of engaging a team that just slated their engine supplier. At least McLaren have kept tight lipped during a season that has seen them struggle with their new engines reliability.

[FW17]

If Renault contributed to the budget in the way Honda does then Horner and Marko will keep it on the down low.

But

BMW were paying Williams and still got slated

[FW17]

Speaking yesterday informally to Auto Express about the possibility of taking over the Milton Keynes-based team, Audi’s chairman Rupert Stadler said,

“It’s something we’re looking at, but then we’re always looking at it and many other things. But I can’t say yes or no.

But with F1, wait and see. It’s an option for Audi. Not at this moment, perhaps. But it is still an option.”

[emaren]

I'm sure that if VW have any intention of entering F1, that they are watching progress at McLaren and using it as an object lesson in how not to do things.

If VW do enter, you can get that they will have spent the previous couple of years designing, re-designing, building, breaking and re-building their engines to the point where they are at least as powerful as Mercedes and just as reliable too.

[FW17]

Porsche 919 was done (engine and chassis) in one years time

That would give them 6 months on the R18

[wesley123]

The project was announced in 2012, so it's safe to assume to project was fairly developed. They did their first run a year later and entered in 2014. By then, it was clear that a lot more development is needed.

Sure, they can put the effort in a years time, but it certainly wouldn't be good enough.